Batman Returns underrated?

[DarkKnight357]

I got the chance to watch Batman Returns for the first time in years and I kept thinking to myself that it's a very underrated movie. Sure it was much darker then B89 but Returns was a great movie. I can understand the backlash against Returns back in 1992. What do you guys think?

[Paul (ral)]

I can certainly understand the backlash.  It was marketed as a completely different film.  Also when you take into consideration the McDonalds promotion (which, correct me if im wrong, wasn't a factor in 1989) it may have seemed to be kiddie friendly - which it certainly was not.

You can't blame Burton thought - one thing i have always admired was his honesty from the get-go that this was not a sequel - it was a very different take on the character.

[AV]

Yeah, I certainly believe it is underrated. But, mostly due to how some people tend to overcritcize the film.

I still believe it is behind BATMAN; but if anything, is certainly one of the most ambitious films on the comic-book/superhero genre.

For whatever is worth, though -- and perhaps this is only me -- I've started to see more and more people appretiate it a little more.

I'm not sure how the test of time will regard it, but at the very least the notion that it was a bastardation of the character will be put to rest.

[thecolorsblend]

I think the majority of the backlash came from people wanting the film to be something other than what it was while not ever bothering to grade the film for what it is.  For me, it ranks above B89 in terms of saying something about the characters and such.  It's hard to compete against the first one in terms of nostalgia, cultural impact, etc, but BR, imho, is the better film experience.  Burton brought his A-game in it's visible in every frame of the movie.  I love it.

[Paul (ral)]

I'm not sure how the test of time will regard it, but at the very least the notion that it was a bastardation of the character will be put to rest.

I'm fairly certain that Returns still pulls in good viewing figures when it is on TV.

[nickdaring]

I'll be the voice of dissent.

My main issues with Returns-

Too many villains.

Too much politics and talking. It's a sloooow movie.

Too little Batman.

Clown gang is alright but it lacks the teeth that Joker's gang of thugs did.

Catwoman as upset kung fu secretary didn't work me. How hard is it to have Catwoman be a badass catburglar.

Penguin is the worst villain in the Rogues Gallery. He doesn't work in the comics and try as they might, he is only fairly cool here. Tim Burton's Mr Freeze or Two Face would have been an awesome sight instead.

Penguins with Rockets is the finale of the entire movie. That the best they could come up with. They epic battle of good versus evil comes down to Rocket Penguins. Don't get me started with the ducky-mobile.

and worst of all no Bob the Goon. 

That said it's still very entertaining and I loved it when I was a kid. I just think a better movie could have been made.

Nick

[Paul (ral)]

you don't like the ducky-mobile? 

"get in the duck!" cracks me up, especially when you hear its engine rev going up the stairs in the penguins lair 

[nickdaring]

It was just one step to far removed from "reality".

Penguins gang of Circus perfomers are smart enough to reprogram the Batmobile and build guided rockets, and have underground radar tracking systems at their disposal but still dumb enough to thinks its a good idea to cause wacky mayhem in the streets. The pieces just don't add up for me in a saticifing way.

I guess for me, 89 was a perfect blend the romantic and the realistic. The evocative melded with the plausible in a way that the stuff that doesn't make sense or is a bit goofy is skimmed over quickly and neatly. 89 Joker is a mob boss who is a little wacky and eccentric but still performs the duties of a proper criminal.

Returns just asks you to suspend your disbelief far too often for my tastes.

Sequels in general are always forced to up the ante and bring out a bigger more complicated story. When reading Batman stories, I tend to like my narratives fairly clean and to the point. Returns rambles around far too much for me.

Batman Returns' focus is on Penguin and I don't care about Penguin. That hurts the movie right there.

There is still so much interesting Batman stories to explore that wasn't, just so we could watch the Penguin waddle around for a hour and a half.

Nick

[Paul (ral)]

The plot revolves around the penguin, but i feel burton and water's heart was with catwoman.

Catwomans character was well rounded with real dimension.  There were elements of that in the penguin but i feel they were wasted to make the penguin just pure evil (which very few people are).  When Penguin goes to the cemetery we know he is playing the crowd - but perhaps we should have seen the glimpse of another side to him (either genuine tears, vengeful hatred or a little smirk to let us in on the scam).

[nickdaring]

I totally agree that the Returns catwoman is a well written character with a good character arc, and solid motivations but I stil just dig the cat-burglar version.  Storywise, an eccentric high class burglar opens up so many more possiblities for her. Her only cause in the movie is to get revenge on Shreck.  Also, the character is basicly an just abused woman that loses it (which does help make her a better psychological Bat-character). However that kind of abuse almost hits too close to reality for me. The origins of most of Batman's character have a touch more fantasy to them. They tried but Kitty-cat resurrection just doesn't cut it for me.

Her teaming up with Penguin to "off the bat" is really awkward and forced. Teaming up villains to kill the common hero character just doesn't cut it these days. (errr... I mean 15 years ago )

And making Gotham hate Batman is such a passive aggressive way to attack our hero.

The casting of Penguin as the main villain in the movie I think is the main element that causes all the problems for the rest of the movie too me. It wasn't until the Animated series that finally figured out a cool way to treat the character.

It's funny with all the political mechanations and delicate character interplay in Returns, I think the story is actually too sophisticated! What 11 year old kid wants to watch a story about woman emporment and politcal intrigue (with a few cool fights thrown in).

I think that 89's power is in it's simplicity! Joker kills Batman's parents, Joker steals Batman's girlfriend, Batman gets revenge. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Batman's conflict with his Returns villains is very impersonal and disconnected. He fights them because they are criminals, nothing else.

Nick