15 years of Batman and Robin

[Silver Nemesis]

On this subject, I find the whole gay interpretations of Batman rather annoying. Bruce adopts a young orphan and the usual voices claim this is proof he's gay. Uh, no. Anything that is a good deed is interpreted through a twisted lens.

Yeah, but the comics didn't exactly help. You've got to admit, some of these panels are a tiiiiiiiiiny bit suggestive (and if anyone doesn't get why they're suggestive, please don't ask me to explain).

The prosecution rests. Now let us never speak of these images again.

[Wayne49]

While all of that is certainly funny, there's allot of baited innuendo given the topic you mentioned. We can play semantics and consider what was and wasn't intended given the times and a logical reference versus a more darker connotation. But allot of that was an easy target for groups who didn't like, nor understand, the heart of the material. Back in the 40's and 50's comics were a highly valued and well sought after form of entertainment.  And many groups considered them a main source of juvenile delinquency. They measured the degree of violence in each issue and of course parsed words to suggest other meanings.

One could almost cater to the notion that Batman and Robin played on those old accusations to stir the pot since Schumacher was looking at it with older eyes and from the context of a comic book brought to life by a man in his position. Perhaps we can say his lifestyle influenced that perspective, or maybe he was just looking at it literally the way the comics portrayed them and his open statements about being a gay man caused people to look for every moment that was suspect. I believe like most things in life, the truth always lays somewhere in between. But if we have to split hairs at that level and say it's so obvious then what have we been reading for decades when you have men in tights fighting criminals?

Like most things you can take it literally, figuratively, or simply look at it as a exaggerated view of the Alpha male to market to those looking for their hero. We could discuss this to the end of time if we had to read between the lines and search endlessly for the double meaning to this concept. Like most things in life, it's exactly what you need it to mean and nothing more. People who grew up in the depression era had to share everything including beds. So that became a known and accepted form of sleeping. There was no sexual connotation placed to that and you sure didn't have to be poor to be placed in those circumstances.

There were times when I had to share a bed with my brother and it never occurred to me to think of that as unusual. I grew up watching Mego superhero commercials when the kids would play with their figures and then walk off hugging each other as buddies at the end of the commercial. Was I supposed to think they were being intimate or just being best friends as the commercial intended? I won't even get into Mattel and Big Jim. Geez...Today's society has gone ape-sh*t over the implications of male bonding there.

Unfortunately our society today see's too much through the lens of implied sexuality when the intent was not considered back then. So comics, toys, even the social norms of kids some 40 to 50 years ago have evolved somewhat due to shifts in social attitudes. But you know what? My grandson hugs his buddies when I pick him up from Kindergarten. So maybe these old ideas are not so passe' after all. Ultimately people see what they want to see.

[The Laughing Fish]

RE: the perceived gay influences of Batman comics, Fredric Wertham must've used this to suit his agenda against comics and promote his book Seduction of the Innocent.

[The Dark Knight]

I'm well aware of those comic panels from the early years. But to me, that's all about as credible as this stuff:



It was a loony time and I'm happy to ignore it. As Stan Lee said when asked who would win between [insert name here] and [insert name here], it depends on who the writer is. The same thing can be said of the suggestive narratives in those early comics, or whenever era they appear in.

[thecolorsblend]

RE: the perceived gay influences of Batman comics, Fredric Wertham must've used this to suit his agenda against comics and promote his book Seduction of the Innocent.

Without getting too far into the weeds with this, you probably should read that book at some point. What it says and what people think it says are very different things.

[riddler]

The word 'gay' itself has gone through a transition from meaning 'happy' or 'bright' to homosexuality in the 70's. Rainbows and colours were also not yet perceived as symbols for homosexuality in the days those comics were printed. So honestly it's quite juvenile to poke fun at how they would be perceived as gay now. Likewise two men sharing a bedroom in those days did not imply the same thing as it does now.

The insinuation that Batman and robin are gay has always been based on people jumping to their own conclusions. If Batman were gay, that changes the perspective on just about every encounter he's had with Catwoman? Bruce dates Chase Meridian and Julie Madison and lusts for Ivy. Dick kisses a girl he saves and lusts for Barbara and Ivy. I've even seen silly arguments that Bruce and Alfred may be gay. Heaven forbid a man has a close relationship with a man who has taken care of him all his life through the death of his parents.

[The Dark Knight]

The word 'gay' itself has gone through a transition from meaning 'happy' or 'bright' to homosexuality in the 70's. Rainbows and colours were also not yet perceived as symbols for homosexuality in the days those comics were printed. So honestly it's quite juvenile to poke fun at how they would be perceived as gay now. Likewise two men sharing a bedroom in those days did not imply the same thing as it does now.

The insinuation that Batman and robin are gay has always been based on people jumping to their own conclusions. If Batman were gay, that changes the perspective on just about every encounter he's had with Catwoman? Bruce dates Chase Meridian and Julie Madison and lusts for Ivy. Dick kisses a girl he saves and lusts for Barbara and Ivy. I've even seen silly arguments that Bruce and Alfred may be gay. Heaven forbid a man has a close relationship with a man who has taken care of him all his life through the death of his parents.

Well said. I may as well have typed this.

[thecolorsblend]

I don't understand why the innuendos never mentioned the pederasty angle of these homo-erotic undertones (whether they were intentional or not). I would've thought that would be the bigger scandal, tbh.

[Andrew]

We can't blame the bad reception of B+R on the internet or marketing or anything else. 1997 was a time in which people were using the internet but it was still in its infancy and message boards weren't quite popular yet. The critics didn't like it even at the time, Siskel and Ebert both went off on their show about it.

From Ebert's print review he was underwhelmed by it but not very much, not appalled by it (and he previously found the past films to be OK at best). I think in general the audiences felt more positive about the past films than the critics so the audiences at least felt a lot more disappointed with B&R than critics did.

And as much as folks like to talk about B&R "tanking" the franchise, Returns actually took the ship down first. WB was so concerned about the fall off in box office after the initial film, they did not believe they had a viable future left. Keep in mind, this was before superhero films were really even considered a legitimate direction for studios to make money. So seeing Batman drop off so quickly after only one film made studios panic fast.

It made less money but was still the third-highest grossing film of the year domestically, that may be underwhelming (especially if studio expectations were too high) but I don't see why it should have caused panic or considering abandoning the series. And in terms of the audiences I think it was perceived as you love it or hate it rather than widely hated or considered embarrassing. BF was also love it or hate it among the comic fans (and critics)  but probably indeed more popular with general audiences and especially as-family viewers.

Personally as a kid I loved BF but wasn't really interested in B&R (I read the junior novelization, watched the latter part of the film on television a year or two later and then watched the whole film in 2004 or '05), I just wasn't real interested in George Clooney, Mr. Freeze, Arnold as Mr. Freeze or Poison Ivy and I may have subconsciously gotten that Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy teaming up was dumb/didn't really make sense.

[The Dark Knight]

Personally as a kid I loved BF but wasn't really interested in B&R (I read the junior novelization, watched the latter part of the film on television a year or two later and then watched the whole film in 2004 or '05), I just wasn't real interested in George Clooney, Mr. Freeze, Arnold as Mr. Freeze or Poison Ivy and I may have subconsciously gotten that Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy teaming up was dumb/didn't really make sense.

I got to see Forever in the theatres, and as a result, there was a greater sense of magic for me...especially being a *youngin'. I had (and still have) the official movie book, several story books and action figures - Robin, Riddler and Two-Face.

I was all over it. I was very interested to see B&R for the simple reason it was more Batman. But yeah, I preferred Forever and still do. It's one of the most underrated pieces of Batman media.

*Not a form of onion, but a young person.