"Watered Down Version(s) of Joker"- Chris Nolan's View on the Rogue's Gallery?

[Bobthegoon89]

As a kid The Joker was my least favourite. Yes believe it or not. Not because I thought he was crap or anything. I just thought he was massively overused. Even to this day. How many times did he pop up in Adam West's show or the animated series in several rows? Too many in my book. He's in almost every major Batman story from The Dark Knight Returns to Arkham Asylum. I got fed up with him. One reason I loved Hush is when it was revealed who the real main villain was at the end. I won't say case some haven't read that one. You know who I mean. It made such a change to say oh look it's not the Joker as chief villain...for once!

What I'm saying is I think the Joker is far too easy a character to fall back on for anyone, especially in the case of Nolan. I was so disappointed when they announced him for The Dark Knight. I wouldv'e liked to have seen new faces never done in live action as was the excellent case with Batman Begins.

There is a funny section in The making of the Dark Knight Trilogy book where Nolan rejects Goyer's ideas for villains during pre-production on Begins. Killer Croc, Man-Bat, Clayface, The Mad Hatter and even Calendar Man all get a negative reaction from Nolan. I found it funny because I did agree with his opinion of them for being a bit crap. At the same time though I wish a new director will have the confidance next time to choose somebody obscure. If they simply do the Joker again their gonna be in trouble.

[greggbray]

Bob: with you on Hush 100 percent. 

As for the Joker: I agree. He's overused.  I remember when the Last Laugh was supposed to be it for a while.  Nope.  Not by a long shot.

Even after Death in the Family they couldn't wait to jump right back in with him during the Secret Origin special.

I think I also have a bit of Joker fatigue.  I know he's a favorite, considered by many to be the 'big bad' yin to Batman's yang, but one thing Batman actually has is a fairly deep Rogue's Gallery. 

That said, I don't fault for Nolan bringing Joker in.  He's the audience's favorite, the one just about everyone wants to see. And as someone who loves much of the animated series/Timm-verse and of course Burton's take on the material, I actually found myself enjoying Heath Ledger quite a bit.  Terrific performance, and a well written character.  He's certainly a different take on the character for many reasons (aesthetics, the lack of laughing gas, the over use of knife) but the Alan Moore 'bad day' 'multiple choice origin' motif felt right for the world of story Nolan had created.

[riddler]

Bob: with you on Hush 100 percent. 

As for the Joker: I agree. He's overused.  I remember when the Last Laugh was supposed to be it for a while.  Nope.  Not by a long shot.

Even after Death in the Family they couldn't wait to jump right back in with him during the Secret Origin special.

I think I also have a bit of Joker fatigue.  I know he's a favorite, considered by many to be the 'big bad' yin to Batman's yang, but one thing Batman actually has is a fairly deep Rogue's Gallery. 

That said, I don't fault for Nolan bringing Joker in.  He's the audience's favorite, the one just about everyone wants to see. And as someone who loves much of the animated series/Timm-verse and of course Burton's take on the material, I actually found myself enjoying Heath Ledger quite a bit.  Terrific performance, and a well written character.  He's certainly a different take on the character for many reasons (aesthetics, the lack of laughing gas, the over use of knife) but the Alan Moore 'bad day' 'multiple choice origin' motif felt right for the world of story Nolan had created.

I agree and especially with Mark Hamill claiming to retire the character, I think he should be put aside for a while. I know it's tough to pretend gotham city is real but let's say it is; first off the citizens would be getting sick of the Jokers constant chaos; either chain him in a cell or put him to death already! But still in such a world would you not expect the villains to attempt to 'out do' each other similar to how they do in arkham? While the joker's specialties is simply mayhem, the other villains have specialties of their own which haven't been completely explored; the riddler with his genius and riddles, the mad hatter with his mind control, mr. freeze (and i dont mean the arnold version i mean the tragic version), poison ivy, killer croc (they should have him in a crossover with aquaman if they havent yet).

Don't get me wrong the joker is a great villain but they seem to go to the well quite often with him. And with the movies playing a huge part now in the mystique I doubt we see him on film in the next 15 years given the ledger factor.

[Andrew]

Mad Hatter, Ventriloquist and Killer Croc and probably Penguin and Clayface would be underwhelming as the and probably even one of two villains in a two-hour + movie so there is something to the dismissiveness. So probably would be Poison Ivy unless you went pretty far in to fantasy which Nolan didn't want to do.

[The Dark Knight]

Mad Hatter, Ventriloquist and Killer Croc and probably Penguin and Clayface would be underwhelming as the and probably even one of two villains in a two-hour + movie so there is something to the dismissiveness. So probably would be Poison Ivy unless you went pretty far in to fantasy which Nolan didn't want to do.

Uma's Poison Ivy is a very good representation of the character and in all seriousness any future incarnation would have its work cut out. I would like to see another version but think that will be some time into the future. Reeves seems to be taking the real world approach like Nolan, with a touch more flair. Which I'm looking forward to. However, a perfect Batman world would be that of the Arkham games. Darker than BTAS but still wholly fantastical with all villains like Clayface adapted without compromise.

[Silver Nemesis]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I would have loved to have seen Nolan's take on Clayface. I understand that most fans would prefer a more faithful adaptation of the character and his abilities, but that isn't something I'm terribly fussed about seeing. The idea of a morphing villain is interesting, but it's already been done in Terminator 2 and Spider-Man 3. The prospect of yet another CG animated supervillain rampaging through a city just doesn't appeal to me right now.

That's not to say that I don't want to see Clayface appear in a film, because I do. But this is one villain that I'm comfortable seeing adapted to suit the style of a visionary filmmaker (Burton's Penguin and Nolan's Joker would be good examples of this). I already outlined my idea for what a Joel Schumacher Clayface might have been like in another thread: basically a glamorous take on the Sondra Fuller version mixed with elements of Norma Desmond (Gloria Swanson) from Sunset Blvd (1950), Evelyn Grayce from Batman: Bride of the Demon (1990) and portrayed by Jennifer Lopez.

But what would a Nolan Clayface have been like?

Well, first of all I don't think Nolan would have used Clayface to begin with. But assuming he was forced to by the studio, I think he would have opted for a more psychological characterisation loosely inspired by the Preston Payne iteration. Nolan's version would also have reflected the earliest appearance of the Golden Age Basil Karlo Clayface, insofar as he wouldn't have possessed any superhuman abilities. He'd have been more grounded and realistic. I can see Nolan taking cues from Alan Moore's 'Mortal Clay' (Batman Annual Vol 1 #11, July 1987), which depicted Preston Payne falling in love with a department store mannequin. That sort of obsessive, delusional fixation would be perfect for Nolan's interpretation, though I'm not sure whether it would be directed towards a mannequin or a real person.

There's a French painter, sculptor and performance artist named Olivier de Sagazan whose preferred medium is clay. He's produced numerous paintings and sculptures depicting grotesque figures with horrific deformities. Nolan cited the paintings of Francis Bacon as a visual influence on Ledger's Joker, and much of Olivier de Sagazan's art is redolent of Bacon's work.

One of Olivier de Sagazan's most famous works is a performance piece titled Transfiguration that depicts the creative frustrations of an artist constantly trying to redesign his face using clay. A shortened version of Transfiguration is presented in Ron Fricke's excellent 2011 film Samsara. It's performance art at its most unsettling, and it illustrates exactly what I imagine Nolan's Clayface would have been like.

I see this Clayface as an outwardly normal man who is suffering from an identity crisis and an extreme variation of body dysmorphia. In public he appears to be perfectly ordinary, but behind closed doors he's covering himself in clay and trying to remould his appearance. He'd be a scientist, like the comic book Preston Payne, and would live alone in a large studio apartment filled with sculptures and other works of art. There could be a scene where he invites a lady friend (named 'Helena' in a nod to Moore's story) over for dinner, and in the middle of the meal he asks to be excused and leaves the room. His lady friend is sitting there reflecting on how well the date is going, when suddenly Preston returns to the table – completely naked and covered from head to toe in clay. It's then that his date realises what a complete psychopath he is, but she never gets the chance to warn anyone since she never makes it out of his apartment alive. The next day a new clay sculpture has mysteriously appeared in Preston's apartment, and it bears a striking resemblance to his lady friend...

Anyone who's seen House of Wax (1953) or the third season X-Files episode 'Grotesque' should have an idea of where I'm going with this.

Nolan wouldn't have made Clayface the central antagonist. Instead he'd have been a secondary villain, like Murphy's Scarecrow in Batman Begins. Perhaps Payne would have been hired to develop something for the main villain – cosmetics for Roman Sionis or poison for Pamela Isley. While investigating this connection, Baleman would capture Payne and uncover the murders he's committed. At the end of the film we'd see Preston pouring water on the floor of his cell in Arkham and scooping up the muddy dirt to smear over his naked body.

Just as I can imagine Nolan visually referencing the art of Olivier de Sagazan, I can also see him taking thematic influence from Franz Kafka's The Metamorphosis (1915). I think he'd have portrayed Payne as unsure of the line between reality and delusion, constantly questioning whether or not he was actually transforming. For me, this more intense psychological take on Clayface, while only loosely inspired by the comic book Preston Payne, would have made a far more compelling film villain than a straight-up CG monster. But it probably would have been too disturbing for mainstream audiences and too radical a departure from the source material for comic purists.

Still, if DC ever publishes a Nolanverse comic they could always explore some of these ideas there.

[GBglide]

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I know this is supposed to be disturbing, but it just reminds me of Paul Schaffer!