Biggest Batman Myth of All Time

[The Joker]

I think Schumacher's suggestion the studio wanted B&R to be "toy-etic" has placed a label on the film it never should have had. Thematically the film looks every bit like Forever. The over-the-top costumes, lighting, and general environment of the two films are identical. B&R was actually able to enhance some of those aspects simply because technology had already evolved enough between the two films to show it better. But the end result was still the same. Take out the butt shots in the beginning, the sexual innuendo in the dialogue, and give Freeze some actual dialogue without ice jokes and the movie would be virtually identical to Forever. Schumacher just took some unwarranted chances with B&R because he felt like the audience was sold after Forever. Had he tried to keep it pseudo-serious like Forever, we probably wouldn't be having this dialogue today and Schumacher would have completed his trilogy with "Batman Triumphant".

As much as I felt B&R left much to be desired, I would have welcomed another Schumacher Bat-Sequel with Batman Triumphant. Just the mere thought of having Jack reprising the Joker in a cameo during (at what would have been) the late 1990's, is enough for me to get excited about a follow-up. And from what I gather, the overall tone probably would have reflected the Burton films to some extent, or provided dramatic beats that Batman Forever had at the very least. Not to say B&R didn't have a dramatic element to it. The whole Alfred dying subplot was serviceable, with the tender dialogue scene between Alfred and Bruce being the real highlight of the film itself...

[Wayne49]

As much as I felt B&R left much to be desired, I would have welcomed another Schumacher Bat-Sequel with Batman Triumphant. Just the mere thought of having Jack reprising the Joker in a cameo during (at what would have been) the late 1990's, is enough for me to get excited about a follow-up. And from what I gather, the overall tone probably would have reflected the Burton films to some extent, or provided dramatic beats that Batman Forever had at the very least. Not to say B&R didn't have a dramatic element to it. The whole Alfred dying subplot was serviceable, with the tender dialogue scene between Alfred and Bruce being the real highlight of the film itself...

I agree wholeheartedly. What has always puzzled me about the production of B&R is the studio's excitement over seeing the dailies from this film. What were they looking at that no one else saw? Because a majority of the most egregious mistakes in the film (save for Bane and Bat Girl) were fixable with re-shoots and editing. If anyone should have been fired from this production, it should have been the studio execs in charge of overseeing this project. Clearly no one was paying attention and let Schumacher off the hook without any guidance. Just fixing the tonal discrepancies alone would have made an enormous difference in how people saw the film.

[riddler]

I do think Schumacher does deserve some of the blame; he pushed for the nipples, redesign of the batmobile and butt shots. He also pushed for Arnold Schwarzenegger in lieu of Patrick Stewart or Anthony Hopkins.

That being said we all know WB wanted things more child friendly; Burton was let go and Schumacher was forced to cut some darkness in Forever.



Neither film is terrible, the last film just had too much going on. Batgirl was brought in far too early and overshadowed Robin. Bane was kind of pointless.  While she didnt play a big role, Elle Macpherson's character was also pointless.

I did like the villains overall plan in this one; freezing and rebuilding Gotham. It was a good contrast of two villains. I wish they played more into the Nora Freeze plotline.

[Wayne49]

I do think Schumacher does deserve some of the blame; he pushed for the nipples, redesign of the batmobile and butt shots. He also pushed for Arnold Schwarzenegger in lieu of Patrick Stewart or Anthony Hopkins.

That being said we all know WB wanted things more child friendly; Burton was let go and Schumacher was forced to cut some darkness in Forever.

Neither film is terrible, the last film just had too much going on. Batgirl was brought in far too early and overshadowed Robin. Bane was kind of pointless.  While she didnt play a big role, Elle Macpherson's character was also pointless.

I did like the villains overall plan in this one; freezing and rebuilding Gotham. It was a good contrast of two villains. I wish they played more into the Nora Freeze plotline.

Removing Batgirl and Bane completely would have helped measurably since their inclusion was pointless.

[phantom stranger]

He also pushed for Arnold Schwarzenegger in lieu of Patrick Stewart or Anthony Hopkins.

Does anyone else think that Schwarzenegger  was literally the worst choice they could've picked for Freeze?

I mean, wouldn't any other male actor (from Kurt Russell to Harrison Ford to, um, Steve Buscemi) have worked better?

What's interesting is that at one point it appeared that Schwarzenegger wouldn't be able to do the film because of another commitment. It was then that Sylvester Stallone voiced his desire to take the role if his friend Arnie couldn't do it. I say "interesting" because IMHO Stallone would've been the second worst choice for the role...

[johnnygobbs]

He also pushed for Arnold Schwarzenegger in lieu of Patrick Stewart or Anthony Hopkins.

Does anyone else think that Schwarzenegger  was literally the worst choice they could've picked for Freeze?

Nope.  You even mention a worst choice, Stallone.  Heck, I read somewhere that Hulk Hogan was considered as a back-up if both Schwarzenegger and Stallone had passed.

This may be a highly unpopular opinion but I always felt that Schwarzenegger's casting was one of the few elements that 'Batman & Robin' got right.  Not to say that Schwarzenegger is a great actor or was even the right person to pull off the emotional intensity a decent rendering of this character might require, especially one based on the tragic 'Heart of Ice' episode of the animated series, but I always saw Freeze as a tall, physically imposing, powerful Teutonic or Scandinavian type with a literally cold demeanour/personality and a deep monotone voice (Schumacher said that he saw Freeze as a man who was 'big and strong like he was chiselled out of a glacier').  To be fair, Schwarzenegger ticks all those boxes.  It's a pity he was not a better actor but then again there are far worse in Hollywood, and in all other respects I thought the choice was pretty sound, even if it was representative of Schumacher's star-driven 'stunt casting'.

I personally thought the depiction and casting of Bane and Batgirl was far worse than Freeze, and I certainly don't think Schwarzenegger was any worse than Uma Thurman with her bright-red fright-wig and annoying try-too-hard Mae West impression.

[Edd Grayson]

I hate Mr Freeze in B&R, but it wasn't really the casting of AS that bothered me, it was the lines they gave him. He easily could've passed as a convincing villain if they got rid of the terrible puns.

[The Dark Knight]

Now, let's be clear. Batman Returns is my favourite of the series - but it is divisive. Batman and Robin is divisive as well, obviously. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but the end result remains the same. Which is we are never going to see the likes of these two again. So I lap it all up these days. I sit back with a tub of popcorn and laugh at the freeze puns. Hate is too strong of a word, so enjoy the moment in time. 

[Wayne49]

I think Arnold, esthetically speaking, looked fine for the role. That look has stood the test of time, which is the best measure to go by. But what remains evident is the poor dialogue asked of him to deliver. Arnold is not exactly a master of the English language anyway. So giving him lines that required a certain tonality in delivery to sell it was completely above his skill level as an actor. He needed a certain inflection to dampen the camp of those lines. And that's where Schumacher deserves the chief blame here. He was probably spending too much time appeasing Arnold on the set, instead of directing him. The same goes for Uma Thurman. Note the number of times her accent changes from scene to scene. There was a huge degree of sloppiness to the continuity of every character portrayed here. So I never got the sense Schumacher was doing his job, so much as just shooting the script and not really paying attention to the performances. And as previously stated, that's where Clooney carries so much heat for his role as Batman. Schumacher never had him change his vocal delivery when he wore the cowl, so the performance came off ludicrous, given there was no difference in the performance between Bruce Wayne or Batman. So after all of these years and watching it countless times, I think my final consensus is Schumacher had a good cast. He just didn't do his job of getting them into character to play these roles. I think he felt the names alone would sell the project. He was wrong.

[gordonblu]

Now, let's be clear. Batman Returns is my favourite of the series - but it is divisive. Batman and Robin is divisive as well, obviously. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but the end result remains the same. Which is we are never going to see the likes of these two again. So I lap it all up these days. I sit back with a tub of popcorn and laugh at the freeze puns. Hate is too strong of a word, so enjoy the moment in time.

I agree. I find more enjoyment out of watching B&R than I do the slightly less controversial and more accepted BF.
BF is an uncomfortable attempt to blend a vaguely sophisticated script (Two-Face is still too under developed though) with a campy atmosphere.
B&R was meant to be a fun romp from day one with no attempts to be a dark Batman film, and I think it actually succeeds in that respect. Does that make it a perfect movie? No, Batnipples and Silverstone sink it somewhat, but those are minor in comparison to watching Arnold, Clooney, and Thurman romping around clearly having a good time.

Actually, Clooney is my second favorite Live-Action Bruce Wayne after Keaton, while his Batman, admittedly not the kind of Batman I prefer, is straight out of the early comics code days.