Is Forever The Perfect Batman Film?

[gordonblu]

Yeah Burton leaves it open for speculation, which gives the audience a chance to put their own stamp on the film, if only for themselves. Personally I prefer such an approach, if everything is spoon fed to you by the film makers, the movie ends up being a time filler, instead of an engrossing experience.

[The Dark Knight]

Yeah Burton leaves it open for speculation, which gives the audience a chance to put their own stamp on the film, if only for themselves. Personally I prefer such an approach, if everything is spoon fed to you by the film makers, the movie ends up being a time filler, instead of an engrossing experience.

Agreed.

In the comics we have Batman (it doesn?t matter who it is, the point is that it?s a character, it could be anyone in that role) getting shot repeatedly. And charging on very much alive. In another comic, we have Batman electrocuted and recovering at once. In the film, those things happen in that sequence.

And Catwoman, like the Joker in the comics, did a lot of falling throughout the film, and she counted them as ?deaths?. Were they deaths, or were they close calls? The viewer can decide.

I can easily see Burton taking all of this, using it on another character, and tailoring it to his own characterization. But yeah, to me, she's a zombie.

[The Joker]

I think Burton took those comic ideas as inspiration only. I don't think they should be compared to each other, but I do believe we should be aware of them. Burton did his own thing.

Yes, I truly think Burton is definately in that Stanley Kubrick mindset where "Real is good, interesting is better". As he did indeed do his own thing, without bothering to overly explain the circumstances step by step. And which is perfectly fine IF you have a talented director behind the lens.

Coming to a logical conclusion is one thing, but again these films are vehicles for pure escapism. If only for a few hours. And if that means the viewer (especially a casual viewer) being able to accept something that may be nonsensical or outlandish due to the film itself being incredibly enjoyable in it's approach to the material, that's typically the mark of a talented and visionary director.

Otherwise, what you may very well get is something more akin to Saturday morning serial fare.

[GothamAlleys]

Being someone who enjoys the hell out of Batman Returns, there's a key scene that makes about as much sense as Riddler's hideout being built in a matter of days (again independent contractors?). Yes, I'm talking about the notion of Selina Kyle/Catwoman being essentially brought back to life by cats. Were they special cats that regularly listen to David Bowie's "Cat People" song? Radioactive? Exactly what possessed them to come out of the woodwork, chew on Miss Kyle and effectively pass on their supernatural powers? I find this particular scene to be a very cool in how it's presented and shot, but there's no explanation given whatsoever. Still, I like Batman Returns and it certainly doesn't take away of my enjoyment of the movie.

The way I've always seen it is that the fall caused a brain damage and awakened some primal instinct, therefore she had all those physical abilities. As for being shot repeatedly and surviving, I also always excluded the supernatural. I thought theres toying with the idea present, but that its just all real life stuff. people survive multiple shots and we dont know if Selina did get some medical attention or if she somewhat healed the wounds herself, since she was quite immune to pain. The evidence that the 9 lives thing is just a metaphor is that Selina never really died and  yet she refers to all of her failings as deaths and counted down the lives.

[gordonblu]

Coming to a logical conclusion is one thing, but again these films are vehicles for pure escapism. If only for a few hours. And if that means the viewer (especially a casual viewer) being able to accept something that may be nonsensical or outlandish due to the film itself being incredibly enjoyable in it's approach to the material, that's typically the mark of a talented and visionary director.

Otherwise, what you may very well get is something more akin to Saturday morning serial fare.

Actually I feel elements of the first paragraph can apply TO Saturday morning serials. They are extremely ridiculous and rely heavily on suspension of belief, but if done right ( Captain Marvel and most of the Republic serials from 1939-1945) they can be entertaining escapist fare.

[The Joker]

The way I've always seen it is that the fall caused a brain damage and awakened some primal instinct, therefore she had all those physical abilities. As for being shot repeatedly and surviving, I also always excluded the supernatural. I thought theres toying with the idea present, but that its just all real life stuff. people survive multiple shots and we dont know if Selina did get some medical attention or if she somewhat healed the wounds herself, since she was quite immune to pain. The evidence that the 9 lives thing is just a metaphor is that Selina never really died and  yet she refers to all of her failings as deaths and counted down the lives.

I figure Selina always had psychological issues. At first she's presented as having an inferiority complex made obvious due to her obvious submissive demeanor at work, but following the fall, and the extraordinary event of numerous Cats suddenly appearing out of the woodwork directly afterwords to gnaw at her, she awakes to become more cat-like in her behavior, and ultimately much more confident with herself and her physical abilities. In addition, she also develops a literal lucky cat streak in avoiding sure death. To the point even where she's able to withstand multiple gun shots fired directly at her, along with being able to absorb direct contact with someone who's being shocked to death. Which is very impressive. Especially considering that she, unlike Batman following the Batwing being shot down and stumbling around clumsily for awhile afterwards, evades Batman's dramatic search for her,  and in addition manages to (apparently) be recovered enough to get in costume and back on rooftops by the end of the film. Which is pretty quick healing I must say.

The whole 9 lives motif could be taken with a grain of salt thru much of the film, but arguably, that particular supernatural element becomes much more literal during the climax with Catwoman, Max, and Batman. It's just left mysterious and not elaborated upon by Burton, much like the time between Bruce's parents being killed and his emergence as Batman.

Actually I feel elements of the first paragraph can apply TO Saturday morning serials. They are extremely ridiculous and rely heavily on suspension of belief, but if done right ( Captain Marvel and most of the Republic serials from 1939-1945) they can be entertaining escapist fare.

I think it's the approach to the material that defines how it's going to be accepted by the general public. With Batman Begins, there's alot that's going on that isn't anything realistic. It's a movie about a guy dressing up as a bat fighting crime, there was a fear gas, driving on rooftops, a secret weapon that affects water but doesn't affect humans. Realism, especially in that regard, isn't even an issue. It's how the material is approached and dealt with that gives the illusion of realism.

When done wrong, it quickly becomes camp or something more akin to serials.

[Slash Man]

Back on the original topic, Batman Forever wasn't as bad as it could be, but it had a couple large flaws. You just couldn't take the villains seriously, first of all. With Two-Face, they changed him from any previous interpretation, including Billy Dee Williams from the first film. On top of that, he's flatout crazy. There was no real sense of him being a tragic character, and he just took a backseat to the Riddler. Though the Riddler was actually pretty interesting. They gave a new angle to his backstory and his motives, but still arrived at the same character, and they detail the process nicely. The only problem is that there's no serious moments at all, which would've made him more effective IMO. As it stands, the "riddle me this" and "what'll it be, Batman" were the closest he came to serious dialouge.

Chase Meridian just came out of nowhere, and was never to be seen again (though I guess I won't bring Batman & Robin into this). Again, the ongoing theme in these movies is that Bruce forgets his love interest from the previous movie...

Robin was actually done well. Unlike Two-Face, his transformation was more gradual, and it was a growing experience for both him and Bruce. He does come in pretty late in the film, but I won't complain. He also gets captured fairly soon, though it's all because he showed compassion to Two-Face, who he WOULD'VE defeated.

The new suit looked good (I'm not going to bring up the nipples), it looked more organic than the Returns suit. The Batmobile was flashier to match the theme of the movie, but it was unnecessary (he was repairing his old Batmobile in Returns, how did he end up with that?).

Finally, Kilmer himself was good, but some of the dialouge is distracting. Then again, he really nails the deliverance of his serious lines as Bruce and Batman, but you can tell he didn't want to deliver those one-liners.