Is Forever The Perfect Batman Film?

[GBglide]

It has the perfect...Alfred.

Really, that Michael Gough dude rocks.

True, he also seems to be the most likeable Alfred.  Not bitchy like in the comics, but not afraid to stand up to Bruce either.

[Matuatay]

I don't particularly agree that 'Forever' is the "perfect" bat-film, but it's definitely not the worst...we all know which one falls under THAT category.  It does have a semi-decent blend of colorful vs. darkness and, imo, makes for a fitting conclusion for a trilogy (as long as Burton wasn't around to helm it).  The ideal being Burton directing the 3rd and final film of a trilogy, but since that didn't happen...

All I can say is it could have been a lot worse.  My only complaint is Two-Face.  It thrilled me to no end that he finally had a live-action appearance, but the way they played him off was just atrocious.  Riddler, meh.   I never cared for him as a villain and always found him rather boring so he made little to no difference to me, though Carrey annoyed me to no end.  I just wish they had left in the subplot about the journal.  That would have made all the difference. 
Still, I find it enjoyable when I'm looking to kill a couple of hours.  Is it up to Burton's standards?  Hell no.  But given the time it was made and the mentality behind it...it could have been a lot worse. 

[gotham22]

I think BF is so underrated because of B&R.

[greggbray]

"All I can say is it could have been a lot worse.  My only complaint is Two-Face.  It thrilled me to no end that he finally had a live-action appearance, but the way they played him off was just atrocious.  Riddler, meh.   I never cared for him as a villain and always found him rather boring so he made little to no difference to me, though Carrey annoyed me to no end.  I just wish they had left in the subplot about the journal.  That would have made all the difference.  "

^ What you said.  I could accept (not *love* per se, but accept) Carrey's direction and characterization of the Riddler, in that universe.  But it would call for a darker villain, not someone attempting to out Cesar Romero, well, Cesar Romero as Two-Face.

Campy villains and dark heroes?  It doesn't quite work, as it ultimately diminishes the stakes.  Also, Chase Meridian (named, presumably, after a bank merger that funded the film) is one of the lamest characters of the entire Batman series.

It ultimately felt 'watered down.'  The original script (pre-Akiva) was marginally better, had fewer plot holes and outlandish devices--though the brain-wave motif was still there--and under a different director may have been an interesting, if fantastical, take on the world of story.

The film, as it is,  is a bit "Batman watered down."

[GothamAlleys]

Watched Batman Forever yesterday for the first time in over 11 years (yes, I liked it that much...). I must say that even tho Schumacher's movies are a complete polar opposite of Burton and Nolan's, its not the pink & red Barbie city, its not the homosexual overtones and its not Robin that creates the biggest contrast with the darker versions. Its the dialogue. I mean, Jesus...I know Schumacher said he wanted a colorful and funny movie but I forgot how far it went. And almost every line of dialogue is just...I would never imagine Keaton or Bale saying" its the car. Chicks dig the car" or flirting with someone while there are hostages held by unstable Two Face in the bank. "Batsy", "You tryin to get under my cape?". Hell, even the first dialogue is a joke "Ill take drive-through".

Ill give Kilmer a point for portraying someone who is deeply hurt and devastated inside, but I dont know if its due to his performance or lack of any acting skills. Not to mention that surprisingly in Gotham the time goes backwards it seems, at least for Bruce. And its nice of him to die his hair too.

Plus - I know the previous movies were fantasy and therefore didnt need to focus on explanations, but at least they did fair in this department. Joker had all those custom cars and gadgets because he had loads of money and his own factories and tailors. Penguin had the duck cars because he inherited them from the abandoned amusement park. But how did Nigma get an island built in 2 days or so, and entire artificial island with hydraulics and traps and all those things inside?

Overall, it was better than I remembered but so far removed from what was before, such a major contrast. It goes way over the top

[The Dark Knight]

Good point about Claw Island. Burton's villains and hideouts were at least feasible.

As you say, with the Joker, it was inheritance from Grissom. Axis Chemicals, the cars and the goons. The groundwork was there, and he customised it with different paint jobs and jackets. With The Penguin, he didn't need to tailor anything. It was already bizarre and suiting his personality.

But with The Riddler, that contruction job would've taken an age. Considering it was all pretty much off the cuff, as his transformation happened abruptly.

Imagine the workers putting it all together. "Put that throne more to the right, overlooking the tubes hovering above the watery grave. And we need electricity on these question marks. And fix the pointless damned strobe lighting!"

[The Joker]

Despite Batman Forever being 'considered' apart of the same cannon that was set with the Burton Bat-films, it does indeed feel quite a bit different from what everyone knew of the profitable Batman movie franchise previously. Which was obviously intentional, and even successful to an extent. If even just for that particular year and summer. From what the documentaries found on the SE's tell us, Schumacher preferred it to be very bubbly on set, which naturally lends itself to a lighter approach to the material. Dialogue included.

As far as Val goes, I don't consider him a bad actor. He's had some very good performances in his filmography, but I'll be honest I never really thought too much about his lack of a dye job. In retrospect, and in that regard, I suppose that makes him essentially the Chris Evans of his day.

The Riddler hideout is indeed pretty hilarious. As it practically begs for an explanation on how something like that could be built so quickly. Talking about it, makes me think about the conversation in the film Clerks where one of the many topics of discussion was the construction of the Death Star in Star Wars and the possibility of independent contractors being called in to do the job.

Escapism, whether it be in movies or whatever, can be powerful and enjoyable for those who seek it. So much that people can accept something that doesn't make a whole lot of sense simply because of the pure enjoyment it gives this or that person.

Being someone who enjoys the hell out of Batman Returns, there's a key scene that makes about as much sense as Riddler's hideout being built in a matter of days (again independent contractors?). Yes, I'm talking about the notion of Selina Kyle/Catwoman being essentially brought back to life by cats. Were they special cats that regularly listen to David Bowie's "Cat People" song? Radioactive? Exactly what possessed them to come out of the woodwork, chew on Miss Kyle and effectively pass on their supernatural powers? I find this particular scene to be a very cool in how it's presented and shot, but there's no explanation given whatsoever. Still, I like Batman Returns and it certainly doesn't take away of my enjoyment of the movie.

In the end, Batman Forever isn't a Batman movie that gets high approval ratings from hardcore fans, nor is it a film that avoided being re-edited for simply commercial reasons (alternate beginning and ending, red book subplot being dropped, ect). Having said that, I think the film has it's moments. Much more so than what followed in 1997 ....

[The Dark Knight]

Being someone who enjoys the hell out of Batman Returns, there's a key scene that makes about as much sense as Riddler's hideout being built in a matter of days (again independent contractors?). Yes, I'm talking about the notion of Selina Kyle/Catwoman being essentially brought back to life by cats. Were they special cats that regularly listen to David Bowie's "Cat People" song? Radioactive? Exactly what possessed them to come out of the woodwork, chew on Miss Kyle and effectively pass on their supernatural powers? I find this particular scene to be a very cool in how it's presented and shot, but there's no explanation given whatsoever. Still, I like Batman Returns and it certainly doesn't take away of my enjoyment of the movie.

I found these comments on SHH!, and I think they're great. So I just copied and pasted it all. No point me writing it out differently.

Several canopies broke her fall. And the snow. She did not die. She was not resurrected by cats and she wasn't a zombie. The licking woke her up from unconsciousness. All the cat behaviour, licking, milk drinking can be seen as delusions. Like Batman behaves like a bat.

Also, what's to say Selina wasn't already an active, fit person to begin with. There was a purpose to that answer machine message "Guess I should've let him win that last racquetball game" and it wasn't soley to prove she was a failure with guys.

In Batman #5 (1941), "The Case of the Honest Crook" by Bill Finger, Batman is shot three times at close range, doesn't die and keeps coming after Smiley Sikes, and beats him, plus forces a signed confession proving Joe Sands? innocence and then drags him to the police.

Drops the paper and Smiley Sikes off at the Gotham Police Station, then Batman goes to a doctor and collapses. The doctor says "I don't know how he kept going the way he did with three bullets in him! Amazing...Amazing..."

In Batman #245 (1972), "The Bruce Wayne Murder Case" by Denny O'Neil, Batman is electrocuted with hundreds of volts of electricity, doesn't die and recovers almost immediately. Also in the comics, Joker, for example, has been dropped from great heights many times.

And doesn't die. Does that mean Batman and Joker are supernatural? No, and neither is Catwoman in Batman Returns.

Tim Burton explained in the Batman Returns commentary  - "The ambiguous nature of the Catwoman. You start out when you see the creation with the cats coming around and it's not supernatural but we feed into the mythology of cats and 9 lives and all of that sort of thing, so in the same way with Batman, wanting to keep him sort of mysterious, we sort of treated the same idea with Catwoman a little bit and not come right out with it. It's not supernatural."

It is open to interpretation.

[The Joker]

It is open to interpretation.

Sure. If you flat out ignore key scenes that illustrate otherwise.

Though I have to admit, I find the reference of Batman #5 to be quite amusing. Especially in contrast to Batman Returns and Catwoman. In "The Case of the Honest Crook", the reader is treated to Robin being attacked, and off panel, nearly being beaten to death, with a very somber Batman finding him reminiscent of the classic image of Batman holding Jason Todd's body from "Death in the Family".

In context, this only serves Batman to become even more determined to bring those responsible to justice. And after achieving his goal, we see Batman literally collapse due to his injuries. So we know Batman isn't supernatural. The story is clearly illustrating that he's not. Now with Batman Returns and Catwoman, we see her shot directly a whopping four times, followed up by making direct contact with Max all while he's being electrocuted to death. But not only is she able to surreptitiously evade Batman after this, she apparently is resilient to her injuries enough to get right back up on the rooftops of Gotham right at the conclusion of the film itself. Which is pretty damn impressive, and certainly goes beyond the pale of simply being 'one tough cookie'.

With Tim Burton's commentary, I wholeheartedly agree that the film definately FEEDS into the mythology of cats and the whole 9 lives bit. Only with a human female, which assuredly lends itself to elements the supernatural.

[The Dark Knight]

Well, to be clear, I am of the opinion that she is a zombie.

I am using other people's posts to highlight what they have to say about it.

I think Burton took those comic ideas as inspiration only. I don't think they should be compared to each other, but I do believe we should be aware of them. Burton did his own thing.

I do believe it is possible to construct an argument that she is not a zombie. In comparision to the Claw Island scenario, there is no ambiguity or mystery at all. Here, I believe there is.