Batman Returns observations

[GoNerdYourself]

Try telling the Russo brothers that DC characters can be relatable, because today they came out saying the opposite, due to the characters "having godlike powers".

I have heard that argument before. It's rubbish. I think one of the major things impacting the MCU these days is there a cynical approach bordering on self-parody. I know people like to rag on movies for taking themselves too seriously, but I like when movies take themselves seriously.

[thecolorsblend]

I have heard that argument before. It's rubbish. I think one of the major things impacting the MCU these days is there a cynical approach bordering on self-parody. I know people like to rag on movies for taking themselves too seriously, but I like when movies take themselves seriously.

This. I'm also kind of fed up with movies that treat comics like they're inferior. Isn't this everything fans rebelled against twenty years ago?

I suppose people can love or hate BVS. But there are REAL STAKES going on with it. That movie takes itself seriously because the subject matter weighs heavily on the characters. It's the right approach to take.

[The Dark Knight]

Try telling the Russo brothers that DC characters can be relatable, because today they came out saying the opposite, due to the characters "having godlike powers".

I have heard that argument before. It's rubbish. I think one of the major things impacting the MCU these days is there a cynical approach bordering on self-parody. I know people like to rag on movies for taking themselves too seriously, but I like when movies take themselves seriously.

I'd take the BvS Wayne murder montage over the entire MCU McDonald's factory. And of course that statement applies to the entirety of BvS. That film has an intensity that just isn't evident anywhere else. BvS is misunderstood, and I usually find to be great is to be misunderstood. I haven't seen a Marvel film for a very long time (years) and will never be doing so again. The actors are dickheads I refuse to support. But I genuinely don't have any interest in those characters or the business model.

[The Laughing Fish]

I have heard that argument before. It's rubbish. I think one of the major things impacting the MCU these days is there a cynical approach bordering on self-parody. I know people like to rag on movies for taking themselves too seriously, but I like when movies take themselves seriously.

I like it when there's a balance of tone, and the MCU nowadays have lost all sense of it, with the exception of Black Panther and to some extent Doctor Strange. The comedy and quips were always there, but the MCU did manage to have some characterisation and some substance behind it, whether it was Tony Stark taking responsibility and destroying his war mongering legacy in the first Iron Man, or Thor's journey towards maturity and humility as well as the brother dynamic with Loki in the first Thor.

But judging by the crap they've put out over the last year and a half with the exception of BP, it seems they don't care anymore. No matter how much I like Thanos as the villain, if I can't get behind any of the heroes because I find them annoying, the film isn't worth my time. Honestly, it got a point I was actually happy when something bad happened to some of them, because their constant jokey attitude in a doomsday scenario irritated me. Their idea is "let's put as many characters and many jokes as possible and shoehorn something really dramatic going on in the middle of this mess" and everybody will accept it. Sorry, not me. I don't care if we get one occasional good film in the future, it's not worth sitting through stupid cheap excuses for comedy because it sells easily to the audience.

Burton's films do have a dark sense of humour and they embrace it when it's appropriate. But by and large, they do take the matter seriously and allow you be immersed with the tragedy of the characters. Bruce Wayne, Jack Napier and Selina Kyle vary in terms of morality for sure, but regardless if these characters are good or evil, you can sympathise the one moment where their lives were changed because there is actual pathos going on there. They're treated with respect.

[Silver Nemesis]

Having re-watched this for the zillionth time last night, I find I have a few more observations to add.

We've already talked about the use of cat and bird imagery in foreshadowing the Penguin/Catwoman relationship early in the film (e.g. the toy duck hanging outside Oswald's cage as he pulls the cat between the bars). But until now I'd never spotted the penguins in Selina's apartment. Check out the dry-cleaning logo above Selina's cat t-shirt.

We don't generally see much of the youth culture trends in Batman Returns. The people of Gotham are almost entirely garbed in retro fashion and winter coats. However we do get a glimpse of some younger people loitering outside the cemetery when Oswald visits his parents' graves, and they have a distinctly Generation X Goth look about them.

l

This makes me wonder what a street gang might have looked like in a Returns-era Gotham. Would they have all sported long hair and Goth makeup?

During the masquerade ball a partygoer can be seen in the background wearing a Hermes/Mercury helmet. I like to think this was an in-universe reference to the Jay Garrick Flash.

When Batman confronts the Penguin at the zoo, there's a moment where I swear you can hear Michael Keaton say "penguin" or "penguins" just before Oswald yells "My babies!" It's at the 1:21 mark in this clip.

Does anyone else hear it or is it just me? It's not in the script and it's not mentioned in the subtitles on the Blu-ray.

Another thing to note about this scene is the significance of the button the Penguin presses when he triggers the missiles. Obviously the image of the bats swarming around Oswald is meant to evoke the death of the Ice Princess. But until now I'd not equated the button on the device with the button the Ice Princess lands on during the tree lighting ceremony. In both scenes, the bats only emerge from their place of hiding after a button is pressed. The screenplay specifically describes the button on the handheld device as resembling the tree lighting switch.

This would suggest Batman staged the bat attack with the Ice Princess' death in mind. Did he do this to avenge the Ice Princess, or was he simply taking revenge for Oswald framing him? Either way, there's some definite 'poetic justice' going on in this scene.

[Catwoman]

I hear it too. Sounds like "Penguin."

Thanks for updating this thread again, I love these things I've missed in my own zillion viewing. I'd never noticed any of them either.

[The Laughing Fish]

It amuses me after the Penguin boasts about playing Gotham City for a fool while he hijacks the Batmobile and after he had framed Batman for the Ice Princess murder, Batman gets back at him by hijacking the Penguin's press conference, and uses the recording of his own words against him. Tarnishing Cobblepot's public image and ruining his political aspirations too.

Perhaps it isn't the most sophisticated observation in the world, but it certainly is a nice touch of poetic justice.

Another little funny bit of detail during the Penguin crashing the costume party: the Mayor's costume is only a knife sticking out of his back.



Nice little gag by Burton to express his distaste for political backstabbers. 

[thecolorsblend]

How did I never notice the stuff SN mentioned?! Yeesh...

[The Laughing Fish]

Has anybody ever noticed that Max Shreck has a set of padded cell cushions as one of his walls in his office?



It could've been a little in-joke by the set designers telling us the main characters in BR would definitely fit right at home in an asylum, including Batman. It's quite telling right after Selina suffers from her mental breakdown and becomes Catwoman, and here she is in the center of the picture with a slightly crazed look in her eyes, standing in front of a background which foreshadows her need of serious help.

But then again, I AM reading too much into things.

[thecolorsblend]

Has anybody ever noticed that Max Shreck has a set of padded cell cushions as one of his walls in his office?



It could've been a little in-joke by the set designers telling us the main characters in BR would definitely fit right at home in an asylum, including Batman. It's quite telling right after Selina suffers from her mental breakdown and becomes Catwoman, and here she is in the center of the picture with a slightly crazed look in her eyes, standing in front of a background which foreshadows her need of serious help.

But then again, I AM reading too much into things.

Apparently it's meant to emulate the interior of a coffin. Max Shreck as a name is a vampire reference. Shreck in BR is draining electricity from Gotham City while he also tries draining power from the mayor. In a figurative sense, Shreck the BR character is a vampire.

Thus, his primary domain (his office, of course) resembles the inside of a coffin.