The Villains - Your Verdict

[johnnygobbs]

What's everyone's opinions about the portrayals of the various Batman villains within the live-action films?  I'm limiting my comments to the post-89 films but by all means discuss the earlier films if you're familiar with them...
I'll start with Jack's Joker...

The Joker (Jack Nicholson)
Nicholson's performance was one of the film's biggest assets and on reflection the role seems tailor-made for him.  Nicholson's Joker is funny, endlessly quotable, a genuine threat, and at times scary (not an easy mix to pull off).  Admittedly, one could argue that the scale to which his Joker is scary is ironically hindered by his larger-than-life persona which initially made him a shoe-in for the role, and the baggage that carries.  In my opinion, the scariest and most haunting scene in the film is Bruce's flashback where Napier is portrayed by an unknown, Hugo Blick, who not only looks like a younger Jack (those arched, devillish eyebrows) but bears a greater resemblence to the twisted, satanic (and thin) Joker of the early comic-books.

Despite complaints from the purists, the Joker's backstory in which he and not Joe Chill is the Waynes' murderer, enhances the film''s operatic quality, and raises the stakes for Batman and The Joker's climactic fight (seeing as they both effectively 'created' each other's nightmarish id).  Although, Nolan was arguably wise to revert back to utilising Chill as Thomas and Martha Wayne's killer in Begins, for a one-off film (assuming that Returns is not really a direct sequel), this 'revisionism' makes for a much more complete film experience, and even if one does view Batman '89 as part of an ongoing franchise, Returns can in fact be seen as the aftermath of a scenario where the hero did confront and take retribution against his demons, and yet experiences little comfort having spent his entire life dedicated to vengeance.

[Catwoman]

with your last part, that could extend to forever when bruce is pleading with dick not to kill two-face.

and how do we do this? do we just talk about the characters and what we thought?

[johnnygobbs]

and how do we do this? do we just talk about the characters and what we thought?

Originally I intended to do a pros and cons for each Batman villain in one posr.  Then I realised I had too much to say for each character so I decided to spread out my comments.  Anyway, the intention is to comment on each Batman villain's depiction on film and how you feel they measure up either with respect to the comic-book or simply in terms of how effective they were within the context of the film.

[johnnygobbs]

The Penguin (Danny DeVito)
Of all the 'major-league' Batman villains created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger, The Penguin is arguably the character that divides fans the most.  Personally, I love the concept of the short, rotund, tuxedo-wearing mob-boss for precisely the reason that many dislike it; the disarming juxposition between the most physically unthreatening, and seemingly urbane and refined of figures, and the evil extent of its misanthropic nature and nefarious criminal behaviour.  Moreover, The Penguin's physical image, thin elengated proboscis and squat, ultra-endomorphic body (inspired by the penguin mascot featured on a pack of 'Kool' cigarettes) is almost as identifiable as the Bat-symbol.

Consequently, and as much as I simply adore Batman Returns, if I were to be entirely honest, DeVito's approximation of the erstwhile aristocrat is not my preferred interpretation of the character.  Although the original trappings are present (the upper-class family background, the gutteral, grouchy nature that was a hall-mark of the character before even Burgess Meredith essayed the role, and the diminutive physicality for no one was better matched than DeVito), the character is now much more openly mean-spirted, both emotionally and physically; far from contrasting with his malign personality, The Penguin's once pathetic, yet now grotesque appearance serves as an external manifestation of his (literally) bilious nature.

However, within the context of Burton's heightened reality and the expressionistic themes that abound throughout his film, his take on The Penguin works perfectly (give or take the suspension of disbelief as to how a man could survive 33 years within a sewer only to be greeted with open arms into the bosom of Gotham's obscenely judgmental community).  Like Catwoman (more of later), The Penguin operates within this universe as a  symbolic representative for Gotham's oppressed and (in his case literally dispossessed).  It's telling that although The Penguin's general misanthropy knows no bounds, he reserves his greatest contempt for those individuals who could be perceived to represent Gotham's privileged classes; he kidnaps the first-born sons of Gotham's elite families, he endeavours to kidnap and drown the spoiled 'little prince' Chip Shreck, and he appears to take relish in his apprehension and later murder of publically adored socialite, The Ice Princess.

Ironically, there is the suggestion that had The Penguin not harboured 33 years of hatred for the society that rejected him (and it is highly possible that 'Oswald' was fully aware of his family roots long befofre the events of Returns), he may have been able to reclaim the life that was lost to him with the total endorsement of Gotham's society.  Unfortunately, The Penguin's need to revert to type and enact his vengeance against those who stand in his way (including Batman) forstalls his popular mayoral candidacy.  As with his first Batman (in which Bruce Wayne and Jack Napier were inextricably linked by early tragedy), Burton once again creates facinating parallels between both his protagonist and main antagonist.  Like The Penguin, Batman's own life (and it is implied that both men are roughly the same age via Shreck's comment regarding them being potential 'bunkies' at prep school) has been blighted by a desire for vengeance and inability to comprehend a 'normal life' irrespective of their social privileges.     

[Grissom]

Excellent post johnny, I really enjoyed Devito's performance but being brutally honest that was always a sore point among fans. In fact listening to some of the interviews on the BR SE dvd, there is a sense that maybe the look and nature of the Penguin crept a little too far to the edge. Personally I wouldn't change it, it was one of the reasons BR is well...BR. Even in future interpretations I hope they do keep some aspects of his criminal behaviour intact even if they "smoothed" out his appearance.

[Paul (ral)]

Great comment johnnygobbs. Not sure I can add anything to that!

[The Dark Knight]

Ill chip in.

The strength of Batman Returns is in the villains. No doubt about it.

The Penguin and Catwoman are fantastic. On both occasions, the source material was actually improved upon. I consider those two characters in the movie better than their comic versions. They become deeper and broader at the same time, sinister and sympathetic, and tragic.

The Penguin is a vile monster, yet a pathetic figure at the same time. The movie touches on the dapper businessman of the comics briefly, but turns that into a tiny element of a much bigger story.

As for Catwoman, amazing every time I watch. She is an electifying character who just eats up the screen. She is so sexual and aggressive, she personifies man's ultimate fantasy and ultimate fear. Her story is so full of rage, confusion and injustice - just like the Penguin.

What Burton, Waters and DeVito did with the Penguin was superb work. Both he and Catwoman are among the most three-dimensional characters in any of the Batman movies.

And the greatest thing about these two is that they represent Batman himself. The Penguin - the lonely beastman who longs for his lost parents and acceptance he can never get from society. Catwoman - the scorned, angry vigilante who takes out the past injustices on the streets at night, whilst trapped between two jarring identities.

And along with Batman, we have three deeply disturbed, doomed individuals who take on animal totems (the Batman Returns poster is a totem pole), and attempt to relieve their own pain in a dark and crime-ridden city.

[Catwoman]

the joker

he was evil but he was a lovable evil, like the joker should be.




the penguin

he grossed me out




riddler

was more jim carrey wearing green spandex with orange hair and doing the jim carrey stuff.



two face

tommy lee jones trying to do the jim carrey stuff too lol.



mr. freeze

if he wants to kill everyone in gotham, he could just broadcast his puns all across the city.



poison ivy

the good news is she influenced me the second most of any batman villain. the bad news is only TWO influenced me. if her lines were better she could be up there with catwoman, its like they tried to go that way and then failed miserably. plus her belly button was kewl. lol.





catwoman

i feel SUCH a bond to this character. she's a role model for girls who just aren't going to take men's bullsh*t anymore and i see so many parallels with selina pre and post transformation, of course i wasn't pushed out of my window and all that stuff, lol, but i was meek and mousy, got hurt because of it, and for a long time i was a stone cold bitch to anyone but a small handful of close friends. i've kind of come around on it, which is what i think might have happened to selina later in life (hint for batman revelations ) but i'll never be all innocent and all that sh*t like i used to be, which i'm sure she never was either. its like having this sort of fairy tale that you live in where everything's pretty and sweet and nothing hurts you even if you're alone like she was and you're 10 years old all the time and then you're forced out of it and forced to grow up, i guess.

[riddler]

Jack Nicholson's Joker
Probably the scariest villain in the sense that he made the character unpredictable

Danny Devito's Penguin
DeVito did a good job but the character just seemed too implausable.

Michelle Pfeiffer's Catowman
played the anti-hero role strongly. This was a difficult character because of how much she changes with her accident. Very good in the revival scene

Tommy Lee Jones Two face
Love the actor but hated him in this film. Two face is supposed to be a dark nd tortured character, instead he played it like the Joker

Jim Carrey's Riddler
There's different ways to portray the riddler, this one was a fun one. Carrey enjoyed torturing Bruce Wayne and went all out

Arnold Scwarzeneggers Mr. Freeze
Silly role, Arnie had fun with it. But like Two face, the character is supposed to be a tragic villain and went overboard in the silliness

Uma Thurman's Poison Ivy
Did decent with the character I guess, not an overly memorable one but did cause a rift between the 2 heroes.

Bane
Not much to say, poorly portrayed

Liam Neeson's Ras Al Ghul
Extremely well acted but Neeson is not a strong physical actor

Cillian Murphy's Scarecrow
A very sinister villain and did pull off the dual role well

Heath Leger's Joker
Only complaint is his invincibility but easily the best villain yet

Aaron Eckhart's Two face
Got the role perfectly as a tragic  villain. Probably the second best villain yet and too bad he was overshadowed by the Joker because in his own movie, could have stolen the show.

[The Dark Knight]

The strength of Batman Returns is in the villains. No doubt about it.

I'll just expand upon this.

The less Batman there is in a Batman story, the better it is. Yes, you read correctly.

In Burton's films, Batman is treated as shadowy figure that lives in the backdrop. The story is shown from the perspective of the villain. By doing this, we get two things.

1. We learn and possibly empathise with the antagonist, who often is a new character for the audience. And 2, it aids Batman's characterisation.

All the while Batman is observing, and will sooner or later intervene at a moment of his choosing. Batman has a presence throughout the whole film. We imagine what he is up to.