Doctor Who

[BatmAngelus]

(DAY OF THE DOCTOR SPOILERS)

Whoa!  Not only did Day of the Doctor undo Gallifrey's destruction, bring back Tom Baker, and tease Peter Capaldi before the regeneration, but it got Silver Nemesis to watch and not hate it!

I enjoyed the special.  The three-Doctors dynamic was fun and while it would've been more fun to have a Classic Doctor in the War Doctor's place in the scenes where he was criticizing his future selves, I thought Hurt did a great job.

I loved the cameos from the past and the future.  Unfortunately, Baker himself spilled the beans in an interview earlier this week that he'd be in the special.  But thankfully, I had interpreted it to mean that they were just splicing in his old footage, like they did earlier this year in The Name of the Doctor episode.  So, when it got to the "All the Doctors save Gallifrey" part, I thought that was it. 

Then I heard his voice in the gallery scene and thought, "You're kidding..."  And there he was!

And having William Russell involved created a link with the very first episode back in 1963; something that was lacking from The Day of the Doctor.

Supposedly, Ian Chesterton was listed as one of the heads of the school where Clara works.  If that's true, this was a huge missed opportunity to bring in William Russell to deliver the message to her, rather than the random young guy.

Imagine the first companion sending the latest companion off to another adventure with the Doctor.  I can envision the twinkle in Russell's eyes and the wry smile as he wishes her luck.  It would've been fantastic, really, and would've created a nice bookend to open the special with that, since they were ending it with Smith & Tom Baker.

Unfortunately, my biggest disappointment of the evening was that I didn't get through The Light At the End.  I was at a friend's house for Day of the Doctor and popped in the first CD for us to listen, but there were so many other conversations around the place that I couldn't catch everything that was going on in the audio.  I'm going to have to listen to it again and get back to you.

Loved the Five(ish) Doctors Reboot and laughed pretty much all the way through.  If I had one criticism, I thought it ran long once the three Doctors escaped from the set and Russell T. Davies started leaving his voicemail on Davison's phone.  If they cut that and went directly to Steven Moffat and the editor at the end, it wouldn't have felt as sprawling. 

Still, with Tom Baker in Day of the Doctor and McGann in Night of the Doctor, this was a great way for us to see Five, Six, and Seven in action (technically).

I agree with your criticisms on the celebrity specials and the absence of a Pertwee tribute.  They could've at least broadcast one of his radio adventures in place of Protect and Survive or Human Resources, since McCoy and McGann were already covered by other audios.  I've only seen Pertwee in Spearhead (I didn't get to watch Three Doctors yet), but I get the feeling he'll be one of my favorites as well.

[johnnygobbs]

I think a better way to have illustrated the "future of Doctor Who" point would've been if they had Hartnell recognizing the show's impact on children, like his granddaughter and future generations, and explored him coming to terms with the fact that the show must go on, for their sake.

In other words, don't show any of the future actors like Troughton and Smith.  Instead, use the fans and the children (who were already part of the biopic's story) to make this point.  In real life, the children were the ones who really brought him joy anyway.

I think we all would've bought Hartnell smiling sentimentally at the thought of them, instead of at any of the actors who took over his job.

I agree, that would have been much better. I think Gatiss misjudged the scene.

Yes, the shot of Hartnell/Bradley smiling at Matt Smith was the one shot in the show I disliked.  It felt like a very self-conscious sop to the younger/current fans.  I can understand the symbolic point of that shot both in terms of Hartnell recognising the legacy he would birth and the timelord seeing-into-the-future motif but on an instinctive level Matt Smith's presence just felt jarring in terms of the tone set by the rest of the show.

[johnnygobbs]

(DAY OF THE DOCTOR SPOILERS)

Whoa!  Not only did Day of the Doctor undo Gallifrey's destruction, bring back Tom Baker, and tease Peter Capaldi before the regeneration, but it got Silver Nemesis to watch and not hate it!

I enjoyed the special.  The three-Doctors dynamic was fun and while it would've been more fun to have a Classic Doctor in the War Doctor's place in the scenes where he was criticizing his future selves, I thought Hurt did a great job.

I loved the cameos from the past and the future.  Unfortunately, Baker himself spilled the beans in an interview earlier this week that he'd be in the special.  But thankfully, I had interpreted it to mean that they were just splicing in his old footage, like they did earlier this year in The Name of the Doctor episode.  So, when it got to the "All the Doctors save Gallifrey" part, I thought that was it. 

Then I heard his voice in the gallery scene and thought, "You're kidding..."  And there he was!

BatAngelus, I saw the episode too but I'm curious to know your opinion on a couple of things.

Was there any significance to Tom Baker's appearance at the end in terms of the character he was playing or was it simply a cameo by a former Doctor in a random role and nothing else?  Also, of the very brief glimpse we got of Peter Capaldi's Doctor does anyone have any thoughts on how he might look/behave as the forthcoming new Doctor, or was the shot too brief and the shot too close-up to make any such assessments?

[BatmAngelus]

The scene where Verity Lambert (Jessica Raine) comforted a nervous and vulnerable William Hartnell (Bradley) during the shooting of the first episode was particularly touching in view of the initial curmudgeonly image he seemed to project.  I truly hope Bradley's performance is recognised by Bafta and/or other acting award-giving institutions.

Agreed.  Bradley seems to have been typecast in sinister roles, from Filch to Frey to even Solomon in Doctor Who, so I loved seeing another side of him here.  The fireplace scene towards the end was especially heartbreaking.

Was there any significance to Tom Baker's appearance at the end in terms of the character he was playing or was it simply a cameo by a former Doctor in a random role and nothing else?

Ah, I'm glad you asked because I have a few thoughts on this: I don't think Baker was the Fourth Doctor because then, how did he get old and become a curator?  And I don't think he was a random human curator either because how could he know so much about Gallifrey and why would he be so friendly to the Eleventh Doctor?

I interpreted Baker to be playing a future Doctor, based on his hint to Eleven that he may revisit some "old favorite faces" in the future regenerations.  This future Doctor has taken the role of a curator in the gallery, so that he could look after Gallifrey.

Also, I could be wrong, but doesn't Elizabeth I declare the Tenth Doctor to be the curator of the Gallifreyan paintings?  I'm going to rewatch the special soon, but it could be that Future Tom Baker Doctor finally comes back to London to fulfill this role.

There's another interpretation I read, though, in which Baker could be an older version of a human who encountered the First, Second, and/or Third Doctor when he was younger and learned about this stuff from him.  When it came time for the Third Doctor to regenerate, he subconsciously picked a similar face to the Curator for the Fourth Doctor (which could mean that the Eleventh Doctor could subconsciously pick a similar face to that one father he saved in Pompeii when he turns into the Twelfth Doctor, etc.).

These are just fan theories, though.  I think it's open to interpretation, but I lean more towards the former, since the episode was already about The Doctor meeting his other incarnations and saving Gallifrey.  It'd be appropriate for Eleven to encounter his future self and gain hope from him.

Also, of the very brief glimpse we got of Peter Capaldi's Doctor does anyone have any thoughts on how he might look/behave as the forthcoming new Doctor, or was the shot too brief and the shot too close-up to make any such assessments?

From the brief shots we got, it does look like he's wearing a dark coat and the TARDIS console seems to be the same one that Smith is currently using. 

As for his behavior, some people are interpreting that he'll be a darker Doctor, due to his intense look in the closeup, but you could also interpret that it's simply a look of steely determination as he uses the TARDIS to save the planet.  Either way, I loved that he got to make a surprise, early appearance before the Christmas regeneration and I'm excited to see how his Doctor turns out.

[johnnygobbs]

The scene where Verity Lambert (Jessica Raine) comforted a nervous and vulnerable William Hartnell (Bradley) during the shooting of the first episode was particularly touching in view of the initial curmudgeonly image he seemed to project.  I truly hope Bradley's performance is recognised by Bafta and/or other acting award-giving institutions.

Agreed.  Bradley seems to have been typecast in sinister roles, from Filch to Frey to even Solomon in Doctor Who, so I loved seeing another side of him here.  The fireplace scene towards the end was especially heartbreaking.

Yes, particularly when he puts on a brave face and says to his wife that there will be other big roles in the future.  The look of grief on his face when she leaves him suggests he sadly believes otherwise.

Was there any significance to Tom Baker's appearance at the end in terms of the character he was playing or was it simply a cameo by a former Doctor in a random role and nothing else?

Ah, I'm glad you asked because I have a few thoughts on this: I don't think Baker was the Fourth Doctor because then, how did he get old and become a curator?  And I don't think he was a random human curator either because how could he know so much about Gallifrey and why would he be so friendly to the Eleventh Doctor?

I interpreted Baker to be playing a future Doctor, based on his hint to Eleven that he may revisit some "old favorite faces" in the future regenerations.  This future Doctor has taken the role of a curator in the gallery, so that he could look after Gallifrey.

Also, I could be wrong, but doesn't Elizabeth I declare the Tenth Doctor to be the curator of the Gallifreyan paintings?  I'm going to rewatch the special soon, but it could be that Future Tom Baker Doctor finally comes back to London to fulfill this role.

There's another interpretation I read, though, in which Baker could be an older version of a human who encountered the First, Second, and/or Third Doctor when he was younger and learned about this stuff from him.  When it came time for the Third Doctor to regenerate, he subconsciously picked a similar face to the Curator for the Fourth Doctor (which could mean that the Eleventh Doctor could subconsciously pick a similar face to that one father he saved in Pompeii when he turns into the Twelfth Doctor, etc.).

These are just fan theories, though.  I think it's open to interpretation, but I lean more towards the former, since the episode was already about The Doctor meeting his other incarnations and saving Gallifrey.  It'd be appropriate for Eleven to encounter his future self and gain hope from him.

I was worried I might have been asking a silly question so I'm so pleased that you responded with such a fascinating and well-considered response.   Like you, I logically assumed that the curator couldn't have been the Fourth Doctor because he was surely effectively 'dead'/regenerated into Peter Davidson and therefore could never have aged to look as Tom Baker does now (assuming Doctors even age before they 'die'/regenerate), but then again, I'm not very expert on Doctor Who.

Both theories make sense and I wouldn't have any problems if either of them turned out to be the case but I particularly like the first theory.  It certainly ties up to the 'old familiar faces' line.

Also, does that mean that the curator is possibly the last Doctor?

Also, of the very brief glimpse we got of Peter Capaldi's Doctor does anyone have any thoughts on how he might look/behave as the forthcoming new Doctor, or was the shot too brief and the shot too close-up to make any such assessments?

From the brief shots we got, it does look like he's wearing a dark coat and the TARDIS console seems to be the same one that Smith is currently using. 

As for his behavior, some people are interpreting that he'll be a darker Doctor, due to his intense look in the closeup, but you could also interpret that it's simply a look of steely determination as he uses the TARDIS to save the planet.  Either way, I loved that he got to make a surprise, early appearance before the Christmas regeneration and I'm excited to see how his Doctor turns out.

I can certainly see Capaldi as a more intense, aloof, inscrutable type of Doctor.  It might make an interesting contrast to the last couple of Doctors who have been rather amiable and puckish.

One last question, I've heard that John Hurt's Doctor is meant to be between Paul McGann and Christopher Eccleston's Doctors which would make him the Ninth Doctor.  Do you know anything about this?

[Silver Nemesis]

Whoa!  Not only did Day of the Doctor undo Gallifrey's destruction, bring back Tom Baker, and tease Peter Capaldi before the regeneration, but it got Silver Nemesis to watch and not hate it!

Believe me, I'm as surprised as anyone. For me to not hate an episode of the new Doctor Who is comparatively high praise. I doubt it'll happen again, but who knows?

I would just like to point out that Zygon body-print technology is traditionally dependent upon the original subject being detained, unconscious, within a special cubicle aboard their ship. Once the subject becomes disconnected, or the body-print erased, the Zygon can only sustain its disguise for a short period of time before reverting back to its natural form. Admittedly my knowledge of Zygon science is a bit rusty, so maybe I'm remembering this wrong. But I'm pretty sure the new episode messed this up with the scenes of two Queen Elizabeths. I'm also sceptical that the energy/mass interface system Zygon's use to change shape would allow them to imitate something as large as a horse. And since these scenes took place in the 16th century - and the Zygon's don't possess time travel technology - then you can't use the old "their technology improved" excuse to explain the inconsistency in their abilities. But like I say, my memory's fuzzy on this particular species, so I may be wrong.

Supposedly, Ian Chesterton was listed as one of the heads of the school where Clara works.  If that's true, this was a huge missed opportunity to bring in William Russell to deliver the message to her, rather than the random young guy.

Imagine the first companion sending the latest companion off to another adventure with the Doctor.  I can envision the twinkle in Russell's eyes and the wry smile as he wishes her luck.  It would've been fantastic, really, and would've created a nice bookend to open the special with that, since they were ending it with Smith & Tom Baker.

That would have made a lovely tribute. At 89 years of age, I was going to say it might be unrealistic for him to still be working. But taking into account how the government keeps pushing back the age of retirement, it mightn't be so implausible after all. It's incredible to see him so active and involved with the franchise after all these years. Must be that Kryptonian DNA of his keeping him young.

Loved the Five(ish) Doctors Reboot and laughed pretty much all the way through.  If I had one criticism, I thought it ran long once the three Doctors escaped from the set and Russell T. Davies started leaving his voicemail on Davison's phone.  If they cut that and went directly to Steven Moffat and the editor at the end, it wouldn't have felt as sprawling. 

I really can't stand Russell T Davies, so cutting his scene gets my approval.

Was there any significance to Tom Baker's appearance at the end in terms of the character he was playing or was it simply a cameo by a former Doctor in a random role and nothing else?  Also, of the very brief glimpse we got of Peter Capaldi's Doctor does anyone have any thoughts on how he might look/behave as the forthcoming new Doctor, or was the shot too brief and the shot too close-up to make any such assessments?

Yes, I was wondering about that. Much as I liked seeing Baker, it does paint a rather messy and convoluted picture of the character's personal timeline. Are we to take it his regenerative sequence is cyclical and that he'll eventually start reliving previous incarnations? Or are we to assume that his final incarnation will see him readopting his most popular form: namely Tom Baker? Or was it just a throwaway nod to the past for the sake of the anniversary?

In the old series, the previous Doctors would occasionally return looking older than they had at the end of their regeneration. For example, Troughton in The Two Doctors. But in a franchise built upon temporal distortions and dimensional anomalies, the fans just accepted it. So with that in mind, maybe the "curator" was actually just the Fourth Doctor breaking the First Law of Time to visit his future self.

There's another interpretation I read, though, in which Baker could be an older version of a human who encountered the First, Second, and/or Third Doctor when he was younger and learned about this stuff from him.  When it came time for the Third Doctor to regenerate, he subconsciously picked a similar face to the Curator for the Fourth Doctor (which could mean that the Eleventh Doctor could subconsciously pick a similar face to that one father he saved in Pompeii when he turns into the Twelfth Doctor, etc.).

Or the Fifth Doctor choosing the face of the swine who shot him in The Arc of Infinity.

I like this theory a lot. I think you're right that Baker's appearance was meant to represent a future Doctor, but I'd prefer it if the curator was simply an ordinary man who'd encountered the Doctor in an earlier incarnation and had left an impression on his subconscious. 

One last question, I've heard that John Hurt's Doctor is meant to be between Paul McGann and Christopher Eccleston's Doctors which would make him the Ninth Doctor.  Do you know anything about this?

There were two occasions in the original series where a separate being was formed in between two of the Doctor's incarnations. I'll put this in spoilers, in case BatmAngelus or anyone else hasn't seen these stories yet. In Logopolis there's a mysterious character called the Watcher who follows the Fourth Doctor around during his final adventure. In the end, it's revealed the Watcher is actually a future echo of the Doctor's regeneration. It bonds with him at the moment of death, and together they are reborn as the Fifth Doctor. The other time this happened was in Trial of a Time Lord, at the end of which it is revealed that the villainous Valeyard is in fact a distillation of the dark side of the Doctor's personality, extracted from somewhere between his twelfth and final incarnations. So I'm assuming the War Doctor was something similar – a being existing between regenerations. It's a messy idea, and it doesn't really make any sense, but that's the best explanation I can come up with.

[BatmAngelus]

Also, does that mean that the curator is possibly the last Doctor?

It could go either way.  It's possible that The Doctor will eventually retire and curate the museum/protect Gallifrey, but a retired Doctor doesn't necessarily mean that he's the last Doctor (though that's still possible).

Or maybe he's not retired at all.  I'd like to think that The Doctor will never retire and that this Baker Doctor is both the curator of the National Gallery and still secretly going off in adventures in the TARDIS with companions in classic Hartnell-style adventures in which Baker's Future Doctor leaves the young companions to do the action as the old man thinks of the plans.

One last question, I've heard that John Hurt's Doctor is meant to be between Paul McGann and Christopher Eccleston's Doctors which would make him the Ninth Doctor.  Do you know anything about this?

Did you see this minisode?

Here's how I see it: The order of incarnations is Doctors 1-8, then John Hurt's incarnation.  At the end of the special, John Hurt is regenerating into Christopher Eccleston and about to start the Season 1 adventures with Rose.  Since Eccleston believes that his previous self wasn't worthy of the name of the Doctor, he's still the "Ninth Doctor."   So, Eccleston, Tennant, Smith, and Capaldi are his tenth, eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth lives, but they're still the ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth versions to call themselves the Doctor.  The number of incarnations/lives is different, but the numbering of Doctors remain the same.

I would just like to point out that Zygon body-print technology is traditionally dependent upon the original subject being detained, unconscious, within a special cubicle aboard their ship. Once the subject becomes disconnected, or the body-print erased, the Zygon can only sustain its disguise for a short period of time before reverting back to its natural form. Admittedly my knowledge of Zygon science is a bit rusty, so maybe I'm remembering this wrong. But I'm pretty sure the new episode messed this up with the scenes of two Queen Elizabeths. I'm also sceptical that the energy/mass interface system Zygon's use to change shape would allow them to imitate something as large as a horse. And since these scenes took place in the 16th century - and the Zygon's don't possess time travel technology - then you can't use the old "their technology improved" excuse to explain the inconsistency in their abilities. But like I say, my memory's fuzzy on this particular species, so I may be wrong.

I haven't seen Terror of the Zygons, but when I'll do, I will definitely investigate.

That would have made a lovely tribute. At 89 years of age, I was going to say it might be unrealistic for him to still be working. But taking into account how the government keeps pushing back the age of retirement, it mightn't be so implausible after all. It's incredible to see him so active and involved with the franchise after all these years. Must be that Kryptonian DNA of his keeping him young.

Haha, hey, if the man can make a cameo yelling at Brian Cox in Adventure in Space and Time, he certainly could've made a small appearance delivering a message to Jenna Coleman.

So with that in mind, maybe the "curator" was actually just the Fourth Doctor breaking the First Law of Time to visit his future self.

This is another possibility and perhaps the simplest explanation, though it makes me wish he was wearing the scarf and coat, since Troughton still got to wear a take on his Second Doctor outfit whenever he reappeared.

Though there are people online saying that the Curator gave the UNIT girl, Osgood, the scarf, but I'm not sure if that's just online speculation or a reference I missed in the show.

I like this theory a lot. I think you're right that Baker's appearance was meant to represent a future Doctor, but I'd prefer it if the curator was simply an ordinary man who'd encountered the Doctor in an earlier incarnation and had left an impression on his subconscious.

Yep, I like it, too, and there's definitely precedent for something like this from the Classic Series, ever since Romana regenerated into looking like Princess Astra.

EDIT:

I really can't stand Russell T Davies, so cutting his scene gets my approval.

He wasn't even that funny in his part either, so that's another reason why I think it could've gone without it.

On the subject of Davies, I think it's interesting, actually, that Day of the Doctor either undid things that he established or twisted & made fun of things that we associate with the new series.

The Doctor destroyed Gallifrey?  Not anymore. 

The Time Lords were bad guys, like in the End of Time?  Nope, turns out that was just the High Council gone mad and there were still millions of innocent people worth saving.

Billie Piper's back, but not as Rose Tyler and is more or less playing a character specifically created for this special.

The love interests/kissing, catchphrases, weapon-like sonic screwdrivers, and new TARDIS designs are each criticized by a Doctor along the way.

Moffat and Smith even make fun of Davies/Tennant's last line from the End of Time.

I'm not saying Moffat is trying to take the piss out of Davies, since the man gave him a job on the show in the first place, but I was surprised and entertained by the script's tongue-in-cheek moments in poking fun of the new series.

[Silver Nemesis]

Funnily enough, all of those things you listed were things I liked about The Day of the Doctor. The further the show moves away from RTD's influence, the closer it gets to reclaiming its former dignity.

I haven't seen Terror of the Zygons, but when I'll do, I will definitely investigate.

I need to watch it again myself actually. I haven't seen it for years. It's a great story, though it does suffer from one of the worst special effects in the show's history (the scene of the Skarasen emerging from the Thames). But other than that, it's a classic. It's also a good example of the gothic horror-flavoured narratives that defined the Hinchcliffe era. And the Hinchcliffe era was, in my opinion, easily the best part of the Fourth Doctor's reign.

In fact I'd argue it was the last truly great era of the original series as a whole. There were plenty of good stories that came afterwards, but I'd say Hinchcliffe's departure marked the end of the Golden Age that began with the Hartnell era; the period where the number of good stories vastly outweighed the number of bad ones. Douglas Adams fans will doubtless disagree with me on this point, but that's my view on the matter.

[greggbray]

Anything that needs to be said, has already been so, so excuse the mildly delayed echo.

Something that really struck me about this episode is how organic it seemed--in other words, this adventure seems to have really grown out of what was laid down over the past number of series, simultaneously complimenting while undoing some of what RTD had set up.  While I'm less an RTD fan (I want to love Torchwood, but I loathe it) and more a Moffat fan, this is one of the first adventures that steps up and says, 'yes, this is the Doctor, and here's how his story not only fits in, but it important to the mythology.' 

I read Baker as the final doctor regeneration--revisiting an old face and retiring as opposed to dying on Trenzelor (sp?).  I understand it's open to interpretation, and is ultimately Moffat's acknowledgement of the anniversary--but it still works for me.  This episode, in part, seems like an attempt to bring classicWho fans back to the table, and I hope it does so.  While I was familiar with Doctor Who growing up, and connected with Peter Davison back in the day, I can't claim the kind of devotion that others here can.  So I will have to assume that it may have had some success.

The search for Gallifrey?  Good set up.    There are many adventures yet to be had.  Can't wait!

[BatmAngelus]

I read Baker as the final doctor regeneration--revisiting an old face and retiring as opposed to dying on Trenzelor (sp?).  I understand it's open to interpretation, and is ultimately Moffat's acknowledgement of the anniversary--but it still works for me. 

I rewatched the Baker cameo here:
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-11-24/watch-tom-baker-and-matt-smiths-scene-from-the-day-of-the-doctor

And I really think now that the Curator has to be a future Doctor.  The lines lend themselves to this interpretation the most.

DOCTOR: I could retire and be the curator of this place.
CURATOR: You know, I really think you might.
DOCTOR: I never forget a face.
CURATOR: I know you don't.  But in years to come, you might find yourself revisiting a few.  But just, the old favorites.

CURATOR: Oh, you have a lot to do.
DOCTOR: Do I?  Is that what I'm supposed to do now?  Go looking for Gallifrey?
CURATOR: It's entirely up to you.  Your choice.  I could only tell you what I would do, if I were you (chuckles).  Oh, if I were you...perhaps, I was you, of course.  Or perhaps you are me...

Notice in this bit that Baker never says, "You were me."  His word choice implies that he views Eleven as his former self, rather than his future self.

I think the Christmas Special, revealed today to be titled "Time of the Doctor," will close the loop from The Name of the Doctor by having the Eleventh Doctor die at Trenzalore (thus explaining why the "grave" in Name of the Doctor seemed to be the same TARDIS as the one he uses), but instead of dying for good, as implied by that episode, he regenerates and lives, with Capaldi as the next incarnation.