Batman Returns- Underated Classic or a Batman movie in name only

[thecolorsblend]

We should not be bothered by his Burton criticisms at all. He's just one guy with an opinion. No different to you or me.

I think it mostly comes down to visibility.  Some random guy on an AICN talkback might not be read or taken seriously by too many folks.

High-visibility admins like Jett?  For better or for worse, what they say is read and perhaps noted as being representative of "the fans" by some important people.  I don't want to tread too much further on this particular topic since (as Ral pointed out) Jett isn't here to speak up for himself but his visibility mixed with what I believe is a pronounced ignorance of the source material concern me greatly.

[Scarecrow756]

I agree Colours, that is the sad truth someone like that has a high standing in the Batman fan community but this thread is about Batman Returns so back on topic. What are some of your favourite scenes from the movie?

[Paul (ral)]

Favourite scenes?
Selina "transforming" in her apartment - infact the whole rebirth sequence from her oppression under Shreck, the city that bears down on her apartment, her boyfriend that dictates the terms of their relationship and her rejection of her complience by trashing all that.

The final scene with Bruce and Alfred and the cat in the alley - just perfectly done. Subtle, emotional and tender.  "A hollow victory" as one particular person (GK) put it.

[Scarecrow756]

Awesome scenes there ral. Some of my favourites are the first meeting and talk between Batman and the Penguin. This is perfect as it establishes the stakes Bats and Penguin are fighting for, and the dialogue was great, short snappy and subtle it suited the mood perfectly. My other favourite scene is when Bruce and Selina find out each identities, the music was perfect and the emotion was all there plus great acting from Keaton and Pffifer. Its so tragic when Selina says "Does this mean we have to start fighting?"

[Paul (ral)]

Yeah the Batman Penguin meeting scene is great.

I always think as well that we sometimes take Batman as a hero for granted.  But that scene sort of establishes that Batman doesn't have the people of Gotham in his pocket and Penguin could manipluate them very easily and there would be very little Batman could do about it.  It tells us that Batman's crusade is not self serving and is for little or no thanks.

[zDBZ]

If Tim Burton was exposed to Batman comics and it is widely accepted that B89 is influenced by those comics then why is there a notion that BR is not?

Is it suggested that Burton cannot remember reading those comics or researching B89 when it came time to make BR?  

It's a bit like saying that that Indiana Jones ROTLA is infuenced by 1930's serials but TOD is not.

Because B89, while it's not hard to recognise as a Tim Burton movie, was much more in the hands of the studio and producers than any of Tim's subsequent movies have been. One of the major reasons he did the sequel was because he didn't feel he'd gotten to say what he wanted to say on the first film.

That said, Burton did grow up with the 60s show, did read and love TKJ and DKR (using the latter as a sales tool for Keaton and Elfman), was given comics to read by Uslan (by Uslan's own confirmation), and did work with Sam Hamm very closely on developing the story and going back to the early comics. One of his major gripes on B89 was the unraveling of the script that they had been working on before shooting.

All *that* said, when it came to Returns, Tim's chief concern was doing Batman his way and offering up his own personal take on the character, not going back to the Kane comics or reflecting the early 90s Batman as Michael Uslan has supposed. And his own personal take on Batman, by his admission, is about the characters. It's about duality, lack of integration, tragedy, the blurred line between the heroes and villains, of pulling yourself together by the faintest strings, a man who has good impulses but doesn't know what he's doing and just tries to make it through life, and of internalised characters going up againsts extroverts. Those aren't the sort of things the comics typically bring to the forefront. Batman is a superhero, and the heroic aspects tend to take the limelight whether he's light or dark, and Tim Burton once  blatantly stated that he wasn't interested in telling a story about "a hero saving the city from blah blah blah." But I challenge anyone to prove that all of the aspects Burton focused on are not part of the Batman character.

[Seantastic]

Favourate scene, probably the scene where Batman is fighting the clowns in the street, when the dog bombs the store.

Oh, and the ending between Batman and Penguin, the fight is great, well, atmosphere of it is

[Batmoney]

Best scene, hands down, is when the light shines on Bruce in his library. Greatest Batman scene ever, and he isn't even Batman yet in that scene.

[thecolorsblend]

I agree Colours, that is the sad truth someone like that has a high standing in the Batman fan community but this thread is about Batman Returns so back on topic. What are some of your favourite scenes from the movie?

I dig the Keaton and Pfieffer scenes (except their introduction and the bit in Max's office).  I love Bruce's INSTANT fascination for this nutcase.

Batman cruising past the Hall of Records and surveilling the Penguin.  The dialogue, the music, the lighting, the sets, the snow, it's all perfect.

Penguin visiting the cemetary is good but I do feel like Burton somewhat missed the boat on that scene.  I don't think it has the poetry to it that the music screams.  Good for what it is but I feel it could've been so much more.

I like a lot of the establishing shots, oddly enough.  The Gotham City matte painting (33 years later), the Wayne Manor/Batsignal shot (and the scene itself), the Cobblepots taking the stroller through the park, etc.  Burton knows exactly how to handle quick shots like those.  There's so much in there that you want to just stare for hours.  None of them quite have the same magic that the Gotham City matte painting shot from the beginning of B89 has but even so I lovelovelove Burton and his models. 

[Catwoman]

any scene that illustrates the winter setting, i love.