Burton Trilogy

[burtongenius]

    I know most people think that the burton batman movies are corny and on a different planet (he must've done something right or there wouldn't be a whole site devoted to his batman movies).  And I say to them that maybe they just don't understand them as well as they think they do.  After all, I think all of his movies are brilliant and most of the world thinks his movies are weird.  (what does that say about the world? - I won't go there)
    In my opinion, if you look real hard into his movies you'll see how good and realistic they are.  The burton version of the penguin origin (and joker origin, and catwoman origin) make a lot more sense than the comics or television series made it in the past (please dont stone me).  What I mean is is that though the Nolan movies are easier to see as realistic and are more grittier, that doesn't make it any more realistic than any other batman story.  What I mean is that while it is easier to imagine nolans batman in our world that doesn't make it any more likely that it would happen.  The content has to be judged, not the movie.  Sorry for the nolan bashing (won't happen again  ), but hopefully i've made my point.

[burtongenius]

Here are some interesting things I found to show my point:

nicholson interview for mtv.com (on responding to watching the dk):
Nicholson: I'm not inclined to watch it because of what I said. But if it's a good movie, I'll catch up with it somewhere. I don't think they ever really captured Tim Burton's spirit [since he stopped being involved]. They kind of drove the franchise into the ground. Tim Burton's a genius. He had the right take on it. That's why I did the movie. I did the movie based on a single conversation with him. We both come from the cartoon world originally. We had similar ideas. Tim said [the Joker] should have a humorous dark side to him. [Burton is] one of the great moviemakers. I think the world of him. He's the most unassuming man. And he doesn't feel pressure. That's what I love about him. Once he's in there, he's smiling making the movie. That's it!

plus-  danny devito- nicholsons friend- did the movie pretty much because of nicholsons recommendation (plus did anyone forget aliens attack- both nicholson and devito- both liked burton)

[burtongenius]

In response to colorsblend - he's right.  Money is the driving force.  But it is also a viscious cycle.  The only way they were going to get the money is if they made the movie appealing to the kids and stuff.  So it is like a paradox.  They knew it wasn't going to make big money because of the backlash because of the penguin and catwoman.  What I'm saying is that the money needed to get over the hump was never going to be made.  They would've done burton if the money would be made, but they knew it wouldn't.

[Paul (ral)]

Here are some interesting things I found to show my point:

nicholson interview for mtv.com (on responding to watching the dk):
Nicholson: I'm not inclined to watch it because of what I said. But if it's a good movie, I'll catch up with it somewhere. I don't think they ever really captured Tim Burton's spirit [since he stopped being involved]. They kind of drove the franchise into the ground. Tim Burton's a genius. He had the right take on it. That's why I did the movie. I did the movie based on a single conversation with him. We both come from the cartoon world originally. We had similar ideas. Tim said [the Joker] should have a humorous dark side to him. [Burton is] one of the great moviemakers. I think the world of him. He's the most unassuming man. And he doesn't feel pressure. That's what I love about him. Once he's in there, he's smiling making the movie. That's it!

plus-  danny devito- nicholsons friend- did the movie pretty much because of nicholsons recommendation (plus did anyone forget aliens attack- both nicholson and devito- both liked burton)

great quote burtongenius.  in addition, did you catch tim's cameo in Hoffa?

[burtongenius]

Dang  !  And why am I not surprised.  That is the perfect example to show how much they were all bosom buddies.  Plus you can't forget Big Fish.  I am definetely going to watch that movie for the cameo.  Thanks for the tip ral.

[thecolorsblend]

In my opinion, if you look real hard into his movies you'll see how good and realistic they are.  The burton version of the penguin origin (and joker origin, and catwoman origin) make a lot more sense than the comics or television series made it in the past (please dont stone me).

Offhand, I can't remember the Penguin's origin ever being addressed in the comics or TAS.  It therefore wouldn't be hard for Burton's version to be more realistic.

As to Catwoman, the comics portrayed her either as a hooker with an inferiority complex or an amnesiac (or not?) flight attendant with a thirst for girl power; neither intrigue me.

So, again, Burton is top dog by way of attrition.

That leaves the Joker.  The prime difference between the comics/TKJ origin and Burton's is Jack Napier's development as Grissom's #2 as opposed to a down on his luck comedian.  I think the failed comedian bit is kind of sappy.  He's forever reacting to a world that knows he's not really funny.  Burton gave us a character who starts off deranged and becomes a sociopath.  Murder was once the guy's business; now it's the joke.  Frankly, I'll take the B89 Joker over any other one because it doesn't try to give him some BS character arc.  Jack was a sicko but the acid made him a psycho.

So yes, Burton's version is genuinely better than the comics.

What I mean is is that though the Nolan movies are easier to see as realistic and are more grittier,

BB had obvious realism going in the overall narrative but the more I watch TDK, the more stylized it becomes.  The impossibility (or at least improbability) of the Brother Eye/sonar concept along with other things make it hard for me to see the film in the same strict, realistic grounding BB shot for.  I'm not criticizing Nolan, incidentally, I'm just saying he took a bit of a departure from the style he set up in BB.  It's a truth, not a criticism or a praise.

The main point, however, is that Nolan's realism strikes me more and more as a veneer.  A very thin one.

great quote burtongenius.  in addition, did you catch tim's cameo in Hoffa?

Not that it was a Nicholson film but he also cameod (along with, like, half of Seattle's music community of the time) in Singles.  If memory serves, he was the videographer who shot someone's singles video tape.

[The Dark Knight]

As to Catwoman, the comics portrayed her either as a hooker with an inferiority complex or an amnesiac (or not?) flight attendant with a thirst for girl power; neither intrigue me.

So, again, Burton is top dog by way of attrition.

That leaves the Joker.  The prime difference between the comics/TKJ origin and Burton's is Jack Napier's development as Grissom's #2 as opposed to a down on his luck comedian.  I think the failed comedian bit is kind of sappy.  He's forever reacting to a world that knows he's not really funny.  Burton gave us a character who starts off deranged and becomes a sociopath.  Murder was once the guy's business; now it's the joke.  Frankly, I'll take the B89 Joker over any other one because it doesn't try to give him some BS character arc.  Jack was a sicko but the acid made him a psycho.

So yes, Burton's version is genuinely better than the comics.

Full agreement. Burton's Batman universe beats everything. Fact.

[burtongenius]

In response to colorsblend-

 The comics and the tv show I think (not a real big buff) had the penguin origin as a bullied child who liked birds alot and when he grew up he took his revenge on the world ( plus was a crime/business boss in most versions- not all).  Some versions of the penguin had him with the penguin hand and some didn't.  What burton and hamm did was make sense out of all the data of the penguin of who he was and how he came to be (and definetelly added some).  Plus as a side note, when officially on for the movie tim burton said how he just didn't understand the whole penguin crime boss angle.  He absolutely just didn't understand why a man was called the penguin if he didn't go through the origin that he made on the screen.  He didn't understand why a regular man (not deformed) could be called the penguin.  And it makes sense when you think about it (I read this on a batman returns site- not making things up ).  
  As far as catwoman is concerned I think the afore mentioned origins are parts of the pieces that burton and hamm put together (and added some).  The whole genuine passive girl is traumatized into a psycho revengeful cat is the perfect origin for the catwoman in my opinion.  This video gives pfeiffers take on the script.  It starts at 1:28  and goes on for about half to a full minute.
http://www.youtube.com/v/pbUvzoHsM_k

She says how much she thinks of burton as a genius in a different video but I couldn't find it. (who needs it anyway right?)

[burtongenius]

 As far as the joker is concerned that is a complicated mess.  Like I said before for the penguin and catwoman, burton and hamm hammered out the joker that made the most sense from the data and what they considered was a realistic joker.  Now, to move on you have to establish one thing.  Is the joker a guy who tells and makes a joke out of life because he is a failed comedian or is the joker because of the card deck joker.  They are two very different things.  Both versions allow him to use his electric buzzers and so on.  Second, if he is the card deck joker then where do all the funny and jokes come from?  Not because he simply fell into a vat of chemicals.  The reason Jack Nicholson/Jack Napier went crazy was because his face looked like a creepy clown.  And it looked like a clown due to the hair, skin, and most important the engineered clown smile.  This is the kicker.  This is where burton really blows me away.  Nobody would go crazy if just their hair and skin went bad.  The surgeon smile made him look like a clown/something else entity.  And that is what made him go crazy (plus that his whole face and human identity was destroyed by a setup over a woman- that is definetely a pushing point). 
  The comics had the joker get in a vat of chemicals and get his skin bleached and his hair died and then had him just get crazy.  I don't buy that crap one bit.  And I don't buy the paintg your face thing either (sorry ledger). 

[The Dark Knight]

Nobody would go crazy if just their hair and skin went bad.  The surgeon smile made him look like a clown/something else entity.  And that is what made him go crazy

And I don't buy the paintg your face thing either (sorry ledger). 

Funny you state that it's the smile that sends The Joker over the edge, not the green hair or white skin - then proceed to roast Ledger's Joker. By that logic, it should not matter one inch if Ledger's Joker fell into the acid or not. The smile is far more important than the skin bleach and hair dye.

The smile is the root of the Ledger Joker's insanity as well. He was always asking people how he got the scars and so on. That's his permawhite. He can't take that off. He's just applying the makeup and hair dye to complete the look.