Burton Trilogy

[The Joker]

Offhand, I can't remember the Penguin's origin ever being addressed in the comics or TAS.  It therefore wouldn't be hard for Burton's version to be more realistic.

The Penguin's origin was actually addressed in 1989.

The issue? Secret Origins Special #1 (Vol. 2). Which also contained separate stories involving the Riddler, and Two-Face.

Quite frankly, Penguin's comic book origin works quite well for how he is regularly portrayed in the funny books. Though I can't say it was at all surprising to see a different take on the character in 1992 with Batman Returns. As things do indeed change when bringing comic book material to the silver screen.

As to Catwoman, the comics portrayed her either as a hooker with an inferiority complex or an amnesiac (or not?) flight attendant with a thirst for girl power; neither intrigue me.

Modern writers have attributed Catwoman's activities and costumed identity as a response to a history of abuse. And yeah, the hooker aspect of her past has been toyed with as well. Personally, I view the modern DC Comics Catwoman to be much more of a adrenaline junkie than Burton's interpretation ever was. The version I love best is the depiction of her as an international thief (and occasional bounty hunter) with an ambiguous moral code.

That leaves the Joker.  The prime difference between the comics/TKJ origin and Burton's is Jack Napier's development as Grissom's #2 as opposed to a down on his luck comedian.  I think the failed comedian bit is kind of sappy.  He's forever reacting to a world that knows he's not really funny.  Burton gave us a character who starts off deranged and becomes a sociopath.  Murder was once the guy's business; now it's the joke.  Frankly, I'll take the B89 Joker over any other one because it doesn't try to give him some BS character arc.  Jack was a sicko but the acid made him a psycho.

The prime difference between Burton's interpretation of the Joker and the comic book version of the character, is that Burton gave the Joker a definitive origin as well as standing in for Joe Chill in the form of Jack Napier. Where in the comics, there is no *definitive* Joker origin.
Hell, even the Joker himself mentions in TKJ that he's not exactly sure what happened ("I prefer it multiple choice").

Which was smart of Alan Moore to include into the story. Despite the many fanboys proclaiming to this very day that TKJ is the Joker's definitive origin where it's stated IN THE VERY SAME BOOK that it's anything but. Maybe some refer to TKJ as their favorite Joker story or that they like the origin as presented there (as it is a more complex version of the original Joker origin story from the fifties (Red Hood, chemical vat etc), but that's an entirely different issue.

The only thing that is for sure is that he was the Red Hood for some reason or another and ended up taking a header into that vat of chemicals. That's it.

"Lovers and Madmen" is yet another take of the Joker's origin.

And yeah, even the Jack Napier/1989 origin was mentioned in the comics as well. 

[burtongenius]

In reply to the dark knight.  What I'm saying is that the smile with the hair and skin put him over the edge.  They all worked together to make him into a monster.  It was the whole effect of all three elements.  As far as ledger, I dont think the cut smile made him crazy at all.  I think it made him mad at the world, but not crazy.  The cut smile definetely had a big part in his character, but it didn't make him go cuckoo for cocoa puffs.  He still had his marbles, however homocidal he was.  Jack joker was homocidal because he was clinically insane.  The joker is a person who goes insane and from that insanity attacks the world.

[The Dark Knight]

The cut smile definetely had a big part in his character, but it didn't make him go cuckoo for cocoa puffs.  He still had his marbles, however homocidal he was.  Jack joker was homocidal because he was clinically insane.  The joker is a person who goes insane and from that insanity attacks the world.

I think it did. Ledger's Joker was crazy enough to complete the cut smile image with makeup and hair dye. By applying those other two things, he's basically The Joker by choice. To me, that's crazier. And Jack's Joker had his marbles too. He was just as smart in my book. The Joker as a character is smart. That's who he is. I love both, but I'm just saying.

[burtongenius]

I agree that ledgers joker went from a normal man to a off the deep end, crime causing man who painted his face because he considers himself a freak (talk in jail with bale, etc.)  But he is not, in my opinion clinically insane.  Nicholson really went insane because he literally could not stand the persona he was made into.  "You dropped me into that vat of chemicals.  That wasn't easy to get over and don't think I didn't try."   And I think that is what truly makes him the best and only truly genuine joker.

[batass4880]

There's no doubt that Ledger's Joker was insane but he wasn't IMHO criminally insane like the Joker should be.

I also don't like TKJ origin. There's plenty of Batman villains who have the innocent victim background. I love how Jack Napier in B89 was just rotten to begin with. Alex Ross said it best: "It's a more credible origin than previous ones".

[BatmAngelus]

Hate to hijack this thread with a shameless plug, but I thought I'd post this link here because:
a)  I don't know how many actually check the Schumacher forum
b) I have confirmation on how much/little involvement Burton had in developing the third Batman film that eventually became Batman Forever:

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/forum/index.php?topic=1121.0

[The Dark Knight]

I think both Joker's were criminally and clinically insane.

They got there in different ways, but the end result is the same.

He's an unpredictable criminal mastermind in the film. That aspect is nailed.

Ledger's Joker keeps bringing the scars issue up. He's far from over it. He's always thinking about them it seems. He's resolved himself that this is who he is.

Even though he's theatrical and so forth, The Joker is an introverted and lonely character. Ledger's Joker does not need an obvious piece of dialogue stating that fact for me to think that.

Nicholson is still better, though.

[thecolorsblend]

Quite frankly, Penguin's comic book origin works quite well for how he is regularly portrayed in the funny books. Though I can't say it was at all surprising to see a different take on the character in 1992 with Batman Returns. As things do indeed change when bringing comic book material to the silver screen.

I think it's more to do with the Penguin not having a character to him; certainly not one that could sustain an entire movie. He was a funny guy in a hat who committed bird crimes. Given that Burton had the Penguin foisted on him by the studio, I think it's fair to say that he did his best in creating a character that is easily extrapolated from the comics original.

Never knew that about Secret Origins Special #1, btw.

Personally, I view the modern DC Comics Catwoman to be much more of a adrenaline junkie than Burton's interpretation ever was.

I think that's actually a good profile for her. It doesn't turn her into a battered wife or a cheap hooker. A thrill-seeker would naturally be attracted to Batman. It adds up.

I also don't like TKJ origin. There's plenty of Batman villains who have the innocent victim background. I love how Jack Napier in B89 was just rotten to begin with. Alex Ross said it best: "It's a more credible origin than previous ones".

Agreed. Between the BTAS Mr. Freeze, the BR Penguin, BTAS Clayface and others, I think there are plenty of tragic characters/villains in Batman's cast. Making the Joker into such a character somehow diminishes the nasty things he did in the late 80's alone.

Nicholson is still better, though.

Ledger and Nicholson both have their strengths. I've picked Nicholson's performance apart from one side to the other, I've enjoyed it for years and years and it never gets old.

It does, however, become familiar.

That could be at least partly be why I enjoy Ledger so much. It's unique, it's different and, most of all, it's new. It's a new interpretation of a part I'd honestly thought we would never see an improvement on. I mean, you look back at Romero, Nicholson and Hamill and you can only think Ledger had his work cut out for him from the get-go.

Anyway. No real point here, just throwing in my two pennies.

[The Dark Knight]

It does, however, become familiar.

That could be at least partly be why I enjoy Ledger so much. It's unique, it's different and, most of all, it's new. It's a new interpretation of a part I'd honestly thought we would never see an improvement on. I mean, you look back at Romero, Nicholson and Hamill and you can only think Ledger had his work cut out for him from the get-go.

Yep, variety is healthy. Ledger's Joker adds something to the character - whilst still being faithful. I love it. I just love Nicholson's take more.

[The Joker]

I think it's more to do with the Penguin not having a character to him; certainly not one that could sustain an entire movie. He was a funny guy in a hat who committed bird crimes. Given that Burton had the Penguin foisted on him by the studio, I think it's fair to say that he did his best in creating a character that is easily extrapolated from the comics original.

Never knew that about Secret Origins Special #1, btw.

Yeah, it's pretty evident that Burton didn't find the Penguin all that interesting of a character when he decided to take on Batman Returns. Especially from his comments on the SE ("What is he?"). And thus the process of having a unique take on the character began. It's a great take actually, and from the comics, it's very clear that it's had quite an influence on comic book artists too since Oswald does indeed tend to go back and forth between his classic appearance, to something quite akin to his Returns appearance (webbed hands, nose).

I think that's actually a good profile for her. It doesn't turn her into a battered wife or a cheap hooker. A thrill-seeker would naturally be attracted to Batman. It adds up.

Indeed.