If Penguin Lived

[The Dark Knight]

Excellent post, Tarzan!

A lot of time and effort there. I appreciate it.

Also, I think the children were going to be led down the stairs, where the monkey came down with the letter. Just a hunch.

Plus, with the sewer air conditioner destroyed, Penguin started to feel the heat big time.

[Batmoney]

The pool area also might not have been that deep where he fell. It would be like trying to do a cliff dive into a few feet of water but doing a back flop.

[johnnygobbs]

Excellent post Tarzan and very well-written, but personally I don't buy it.

Batman caught the Organ Grinder, and presumably his pals, when they were trying to kidnap the first-born children.  Whilst it's unlikely that Batman would stride right up to the police since he was still a fugitive at this point, I suspect he would have knocked out/tied up the Organ Grinder and the other clowns so that the police could later apprehend them.  It's therefore, highly likely that The Penguin's cohorts would have provided a confession, thereby incriminating their boss, in order to commute their sentence - besides, the evidence speaks for itself, the Red Triangle Circus Gang would have been found alongside the cages they were using to transport the kids.

I also suspect that the police would have eventually rounded up the rest of The Penguin's crew, just as they had caught the Joker's goons by the end of the first Batman film, thereby, providing more witnesses.

I accept that Max wouldn?t have been able to provide testimony since he?s dead by the end of the film, Chip was pretty clueless about his father?s plans, and wouldn?t be of much use, and Selina would have ?disappeared? having killed Max.  However, I suspect Bruce, upstanding citizen that he is, would be willing to reveal his identity for the sake of justice and exposing Oswald for the criminal he is.  Moreover, the police would only have to take one peak in Oswald?s campaign van to discover the mini-Batmobile that he was using in order to control the real thing, and wreak havoc in Gotham.

I do appreciate that much of your post was very tongue-in-cheek, but I honestly believe that The Penguin would have been brought to justice had be lived, not least because he was a complete pariah by the last act of the film.

[Tarzan1941]

Excellent post Tarzan and very well-written, but personally I don't buy it.

Batman caught the Organ Grinder, and presumably his pals, when they were trying to kidnap the first-born children.  Whilst it's unlikely that Batman would stride right up to the police since he was still a fugitive at this point, I suspect he would have knocked out/tied up the Organ Grinder and the other clowns so that the police could later apprehend them.  It's therefore, highly likely that The Penguin's cohorts would have provided a confession, thereby incriminating their boss, in order to commute their sentence - besides, the evidence speaks for itself, the Red Triangle Circus Gang would have been found alongside the cages they were using to transport the kids.

I also suspect that the police would have eventually rounded up the rest of The Penguin's crew, just as they had caught the Joker's goons by the end of the first Batman film, thereby, providing more witnesses.

I accept that Max wouldn?t have been able to provide testimony since he?s dead by the end of the film, Chip was pretty clueless about his father?s plans, and wouldn?t be of much use, and Selina would have ?disappeared? having killed Max.  However, I suspect Bruce, upstanding citizen that he is, would be willing to reveal his identity for the sake of justice and exposing Oswald for the criminal he is.  Moreover, the police would only have to take one peak in Oswald?s campaign van to discover the mini-Batmobile that he was using in order to control the real thing, and wreak havoc in Gotham.

I do appreciate that much of your post was very tongue-in-cheek, but I honestly believe that The Penguin would have been brought to justice had be lived, not least because he was a complete pariah by the last act of the film.

Thanks for the kudos Johnny.

However, this line cracked me up, "I suspect Bruce, upstanding citizen that he is, would be willing to reveal his identity for the sake of justice and exposing Oswald for the criminal he is."

Seriously?  Bruce is willing to reveal his secret identity, just so that justice can be served and have the Penguin go to jail?  Does he do this all the time or is this a one shot deal?  And if he does this all the time, do the citizens know who Batman is, or does Superman kiss everyone in the court room, making them forget who he is, so that he may continue to do his job?  Why would he do this, knowing in the process, he, himself would end up in jail since he is, you, know, a vigilante and all?  How many cars again does the Batmobile destroy while Penguin has it under his control? Not to mention the passengers inside?  How many Ice Princesses were kidnapped with a Batarang?  How many people were attacked and emotionally damaged by the flying bats coming out of the Christmas tress?  It may not be Batman's direct fault, however, instead of a half-wit lawyer, all the D.A. would need to do is prove that Batman/Bruce Wayne is still responsible for his actions because it was his illegal Batmobile that was hijacked and used for criminal use.  It was his illegal hand weapon that was used to knock the Ice Princess in the head.  It was his illegal actions that brought upon the death and destruction during the holiest of times.  Not to mention, do you think the people that didn't vote for the Mayor, wouldn't want to see his butt on the stand being asked the question: "Why do you allow a costumed vigilante to do the job of the police department which is fully funded by the citizens of Gotham with their tax dollars?"  One can imagine the line of questioning from there plus Commissioner Gordon's emotional breakdown as he admits, under oath, "I just don't know what the hell is going on anymore.  My men are on the take.  The city is falling apart and I no longer can continue to control the situation."   Kiss the Mayor and Gordon's careers good-bye.

Thanks, Bruce.

And as for the police rounding up the rest of the crew, is this the same police force that has allowed this sort of deterioration to come to the city in the first place?  Is the same police force that allowed Carl Grissom to rise to power?  Is this the same police force that allowed Joker to stride down Main Street with floats and balloons poisoning the greedy of Gotham?  Is this the same police force who allowed the Batmobile to escape, and while in the process brought harm and destruction to the personal property of the civilians minding their own business?  Is this the same police force that couldn't catch a fat, bird like man before he threw himself over the side of the bridge and into the river?  Sorry, but you know what, as a villain, as a henchman, as a Goon, I got to like my chances.  With the buffoons on this force, no wonder they have to rely on a man dressed as a bat to do their jobs.  I don't trust some beat cop to bring in the Red Circus Triangle Gang, let a lone an old woman stealing from the local farmer's market.   No wonder Batman is angry all the time.  He just can't get any help from those who he is trying to protect.  The police run into a jam after Max's speech and what is the first thing Gordon says? "What are you waiting for?! The signal!"  That's right, he can't find the strength to summon the SWAT Team, or all available units to come to the scene, but would rather flash a signal in the sky and bring in the one man that can use illegal force, (lethal if necessary) whose actions are apparently condoned by the police commissioner just so a couple of guys with enormous skeleton heads on motorcycles can be apprehended.  The Red Circus Triangle Gang may have been arrested by the police, but with this track record, I am willing to wager they just walked out of jail once they showed the guard a bright shiny object.

[johnnygobbs]

Once again, a very well written post Tarzan, despite the insult...

Still, my point is screw Bruce Wayne's secret identity.  After all, he was willing to reveal it to Selina and Max Shreck, before the former got shot and the latter was electrocuted, and surely the apprehension and arrest of The Penguin was far more important than whether or not he got laid with Selina Kyle.

If Batman is such a hero, surely he'd put the city's needs before his own, after all I was always under the impression that his role as Batman had something to do with justice.  If he is as decent and heroic as he no doubt believes himself to be, I am sure he'd be willing to risk revealing his own identity and possibly going to jail, in order to see that The Penguin was punished.  In any case, although Batman does operate outside the law, it's unlikely that Bruce would have been severely punished in view of The Penguin's guilt for the kidnap and Batmobile's rampage, not to mention all the good Batman had done for the city over the years (including single-handedly saving the city from The Joker's gas balloons, as you point out yourself).

As for Gordon and the Mayor...tough.  Gotham will reap the consequences of seeking to punish Batman the next time a psycho tries to destroy the city.  If they have any sense (admittedly doubtful) the city will go easy on Batman and the officials who supported him.  In any case, that doesn?t excuse The Penguin of his actions and the ongoing threat he?d pose to the city were he to be allowed to escape scot-free.

Yes, Gotham PD are inept, but I don?t see how even the Keystone Cops could go wrong if Batman were to apprehend the Organ Grinder and the other members of the Red Triangle Circus Crew and deposit them next to the cages they were using to kidnap the kids.  Besides, the kids themselves would be able to finger the kidnappers, and why would they all lie.  Were they all under the influence of alcohol as well as their parents?

It wouldn?t take a D.A with half a brain to figure out that The Penguin and his gang were responsible for all the chaos in Gotham.  Hell, even Tommy Lee Jones was apparently able to clear Batman of any wrongdoing according to the Batman Forever novelisation.