Batman and Returns are actually two different portrayals of Batman

[Dark Knight Detective]

I'm sorry that you see this film as a failure.

Batman Returns is a Batman movie through & through. And from my perspective, I see it as Tim Burton's vision of The Dark Knight Returns, & it came out perfectly.

If anything, it went beyond the boundaries of a comic book film, & what we got was a masterpiece.

[thecolorsblend]

Bruce admits to alfred that he has never been in love.  What does he mean never? what happened to his love for vicki or selina again not even refrencing them.  From what I understand it is a Third installment, but it was ment to reinvent the franchise their truly is no connection to the story of the previous films and even if it was, its not enough.  And despite the recasting of Michael Gough or Pat Hingle they did nothing to help the previous stories.  You don't hear  Alfred say, "Well master bruce their was that one woman that I allowed in the cave and do you remeber the one that I had to relay a message for you."  No because their is no real connection

Where and when did Bruce ever say (or otherwise express) that he loved Vicki in B89?  I see a man who's infatuated with a woman (or perhaps the ramifications for his life that she represents) but I'd hardly call the feelings he has for her "love".  Infatuation, lust, compulsion, curiosity, longing, any number of things, but not love.  Never love.

And honestly?  I question whether or not he'd built a solid enough base to genuinely love Selina either.  He barely knew her.  He knew there was some commonality and he definitely wanted to explore that but their romance was so brief, stunted and cut off that I cannot fathom he had genuine love for her either.

By those same tokens, I can't really envision that Bruce loved Chase either... but then, I don't think he said he did.  He said "I've never been in love".  He didn't add "... until now".  To me, he was only expressing his lack of familiarity with this sort of thing.  Alfred's advising him to "go to her, tell her how you feel" to me simply means to express what Bruce has in his heart... not to say that he loves her.

To be honest, I'm just more disappointed in Batman Returns than anything else. We could've gotten something remarkable in the comic film genre, and due to the simple fact that you can't make a Batman film without action sequences and commercialization, we are left with an interesting failure. Not Burton's fault. Not anyone's fault, really.

I think the action sequence criticism is more a result of Burton's relative ineptitude with that sort of thing.  He is many things but Michael Bay he will never be.  Batman films need to carry a certain level of action, fighting and spectacle.  It's part and parcel of the comics and has been since day one.

Moreover than that, I don't think the action scenes in BR are any better or worse than those in B89.  Burton took the thematic material to the next level in BR (wonderfully so, I might add) and he had pretty much a creative blank check from WB.  If he didn't want to include so many action scenes or what have you, well, he had complete creative control over every aspect of the production.  I assure you, he could've cut or else tailored the action stuff to suit his vision and the storyline.  He didn't.  The only "note" Burton received from the studio (that he has gone on the record about anyway) is WB insisting that he use the Penguin in BR.  He wanted to use Catwoman.  So WB told him to use both... thereby starting the trend of multiple villains in one film.

Which hasn't been entirely a blessing thus far.

Even so, love it or hate, BR is pretty much exactly Burton's vision of what it should be.

[THE BAT-MAN]

Where and when did Bruce ever say (or otherwise express) that he loved Vicki in B89?  I see a man who's infatuated with a woman (or perhaps the ramifications for his life that she represents) but I'd hardly call the feelings he has for her "love".  Infatuation, lust, compulsion, curiosity, longing, any number of things, but not love.  Never love.

And honestly?  I question whether or not he'd built a solid enough base to genuinely love Selina either.  He barely knew her.  He knew there was some commonality and he definitely wanted to explore that but their romance was so brief, stunted and cut off that I cannot fathom he had genuine love for her either.

By those same tokens, I can't really envision that Bruce loved Chase either... but then, I don't think he said he did.  He said "I've never been in love".  He didn't add "... until now".  To me, he was only expressing his lack of familiarity with this sort of thing.  Alfred's advising him to "go to her, tell her how you feel" to me simply means to express what Bruce has in his heart... not to say that he loves her.

I understand what you mean and you could be right.  However, I believe He was trying to express his love for vicki when he was going to tell her that he was Batman.   As for Selina,  I believe he genuinely loved and cared for her, especially, when he realized that their the same.  He say's " Let's just take him to the police, then we can go home... together."  he didn't say, "let me drop you off at your apartment" he was offering her a chance to be with him, and for that brief tender moment, the persona of Bruce Wayne came to life.  Him pulling off his mask, was kinda of a testament of that.  He didn't even care about shreck at that point.  As for Chase, I believe he was in love with her both as Batman and Bruce Wayne he just didn't know how to express himself.  Alfred basically tells him, "Go to her, tell her how you  feel?" he does and then he's willing to give up being Batman.  How does that not show that he loves her?.  Let's not forget that this film although being the third installment was still trying to reinvent itself in the franchise.

[Joker81]

What makes a sequel?

Batman Returns is indeed a sequel to Batman. Just like Batman Forever is a sequel to Batman Returns and a second sequel to Batman - whether you guys like it or not.

What I think is getting confused in this thread is the difference between a sequel being a continuing story and a sequel being a new story.

Batman Returns is a sequel, but a new story. It doesnt pick up where the first ends. It doesn't reference the first that often,  because that wasn't the type of sequel Burton wanted to make. You are right Burton wanted a stand alone sequel, a film that didnt require you to see the first. Not all sequels require you to see the first movie.

I think the difference in tone between Batman and Batman Returns
is what the confusing aspect is here, and of course set design. But character wise, and story wise Batman Returns is indeed a sequel.

I'll just post this for THE "BAT-MAN" who probably didn't see my earlier post!

[THE BAT-MAN]

I'll just post this for THE "BAT-MAN" who probably didn't see my earlier post!

I did see your post, I just wanted to give a more detailed example.