Proposed Superman II ending

[The Laughing Fish]

It is my understanding that Donner made the decision to abandon filming on Superman II about 3/4's of the way through the process. At some point along the way, somebody realized that if the first movie doesn't succeed, there won't be a second movie.

According to what Tom Mankiewicz said on the Making Superman featurette (which you can see on the video below on 17:24), it wasn't Donner who made the call. He says WB made the decision to put SII on hold, so everyone could focus on finishing the first film. This was in the midst of all the panic that was happening behind the scenes i.e. the producers couldn't get more money, the petty dispute and lack of communication between themselves and Donner, and stupid studio politics. Evidently, shooting both films simultaneously turned out to be far more trouble and expensive than anyone could've guessed.

Mankiewicz said he believed had S78 flopped, the Salkinds would've made Donner finish the sequel as punishment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qASlOahE_o8&ab_channel=HollywoodArchive

There might be two sides of the story, as Ilya Salkind says, but history does tend to paint the Salkinds as the bad guys, for better or worse.

[thecolorsblend]

WB couldn't make that decision tho. It sounds insane in today's world but WB sold the film rights to Superman to the Salkinds as part of a negative pickup deal. So ultimately, the bosses were the Salkinds (and Spengler). Assuming Mankey's recollection is accurate (and who knows?), WB could've simply been making a suggestion. But generally speaking, they would've lacked the authority to shut down production on a film (i.e., Superman II) to which they had sold the rights.

I perhaps inaccurately attributed the decision to Donner. But one thing is for sure, very few parties could've made that decision. WB is not one of those parties under the type of negative pickup deal it sounds like was made with the Salkinds.

As a general thing, as good a job as Donner might've done on STM, my sympathies with his termination ultimately are with the Salkinds. When your director insults you to the international media and jeopardizes the franchise you're attempting to create, you've got no choice but to fire him with extreme prejudice. And the Salkinds fired him with extreme prejudice.

I think history should have vindicated the Salkinds at the same time it should have implicated Donner. The Salkinds went on to produce Superman III (a conventional Bronze Age Superman story if ever there was one) and the Superboy TV show (which, 90's syndicated cheesiness aside, was a highly reverent take on the material) while the Donner cut of Superman II would still be clearly inferior to Lester's cut even if Donner had been able to finish it properly (which he wasn't).

And yet, a lot of fans still have a rather simplistic view of Donner The Hero Vs. Salkind Family The Villains and I just think the historical record tells a very different and far more complicated story.

[Kamdan]

When Warners sold the screen rights to the Salkinds, that was a sign of the total lack of faith they had in this being the success it turned out to be. Once they saw what Donner was handling this, he was led to believe Warners was gonna buy out the Salkinds' and let him continue with them. That led him to make statements about if Spengler was the producer, he wasn't going to be returning. The Salkinds weren't selling and they obliged Donner's statement.

[The Laughing Fish]

Ilya Salkind had accused Donner of calling the producers "assholes" in public.

After the first movie opened, Salkind recounted that Donner told the Press that "'I'll do 'II' but it's my conditions; if not I won't do it'.... Then he called us a**holes publicly. We can't work with this guy if the guy hates us so then we said let's go and see Lester."

Salkind responded to Donner's insistence in interviews over the years that no one ever contacted him to let him know he wouldn't be returning to finish "Superman II". According to Salkind, Spengler actually tried to call Donner "two or three times to try to say Dick, let's work together, let's bury the hatchet." Salkind remembered that Donner "actually disappeared" during this time and that no one could find him. "That's when, finally, we said 'OK, let's make the film ['II']" with Lester.

Source: https://www.supermanhomepage.com/movies/movies.php?topic=interview-salkind

If Donner said those comments because he thought WB was going to buy the rights from the Salkinds, then I'm afraid to say he only has himself to blame for his lack of professionalism. Even if WB wasn't getting involved, it's still unprofessional to say such things.

I do understand he felt frustrated with the producers, and going by what many actors and crew members have been saying, the Salkinds aren't exactly innocent. But come on, you can't make disparaging comments in public and not expect any consequences.

And yet, a lot of fans still have a rather simplistic view of Donner The Hero Vs. Salkind Family The Villains and I just think the historical record tells a very different and far more complicated story.

I don't think Donner's ideas for SII were great either, and for all their faults, the Salkinds were still instrumental in getting Superman adapted on film and TV for modern times.

But when you have people who worked on those two films showing their support for Donner, and expressing their own grievances for not getting compensated properly, it's not really hard to understand why the fans would perceive the producers as the villains. It should be noted that Donner was praised by the cast and crew for making a friendly atmosphere on the set. Some go far to say they felt like they were part of a family. I can imagine how distressing it would've been when it was announced that Donner was fired.

Once again, I agree that Donner really put his foot in his mouth. But I do see why people would resent the Salkinds from an emotional point of view.

[thecolorsblend]

Ilya Salkind had accused Donner of calling the producers "assholes" in public.

After the first movie opened, Salkind recounted that Donner told the Press that "'I'll do 'II' but it's my conditions; if not I won't do it'.... Then he called us a**holes publicly. We can't work with this guy if the guy hates us so then we said let's go and see Lester."

Salkind responded to Donner's insistence in interviews over the years that no one ever contacted him to let him know he wouldn't be returning to finish "Superman II". According to Salkind, Spengler actually tried to call Donner "two or three times to try to say Dick, let's work together, let's bury the hatchet." Salkind remembered that Donner "actually disappeared" during this time and that no one could find him. "That's when, finally, we said 'OK, let's make the film ['II']" with Lester.

Source: https://www.supermanhomepage.com/movies/movies.php?topic=interview-salkind

If Donner said those comments because he thought WB was going to buy the rights from the Salkinds, then I'm afraid to say he only has himself to blame for his lack of professionalism. Even if WB wasn't getting involved, it's still unprofessional to say such things.

I do understand he felt frustrated with the producers, and going by what many actors and crew members have been saying, the Salkinds aren't exactly innocent. But come on, you can't make disparaging comments in public and not expect any consequences.

And yet, a lot of fans still have a rather simplistic view of Donner The Hero Vs. Salkind Family The Villains and I just think the historical record tells a very different and far more complicated story.

I don't think Donner's ideas for SII were great either, and for all their faults, the Salkinds were still instrumental in getting Superman adapted on film and TV for modern times.

But when you have people who worked on those two films showing their support for Donner, and expressing their own grievances for not getting compensated properly, it's not really hard to understand why the fans would perceive the producers as the villains. It should be noted that Donner was praised by the cast and crew for making a friendly atmosphere on the set. Some go far to say they felt like they were part of a family. I can imagine how distressing it would've been when it was announced that Donner was fired.

Once again, I agree that Donner really put his foot in his mouth. But I do see why people would resent the Salkinds from an emotional point of view.

Agreed, agreed and agreed again. There was a time when STM-S3 were such a legal quagmire that Spengler refused to discuss them in public anymore because every time he did, he claimed he got sued.

But after WB bought everything, that simplified the legal swamp and I think it freed Donner up to share his side of the story. I suspect one reason why the Salkinds have been so vilified is because Ilya has never mounted the same kind of full offense against Donner. And Spengler is obviously out of the game now.

In the end, with the Salkinds vs. Donner thing, I think the real explanation is that both sides probably wronged the other in a legitimate way and both sides have a good reason to grind an axe.

But the part of me who has had to handle complex business decisions very much understands why Donner had to be let go.

(And yes, S2 is p00p no matter which version we're talking about but Donner's cut is definitely p00pier than Lester's)

[The Laughing Fish]

I came across comments by BvS detractors saying Superman telling Lois she is his world before making that noble sacrifice is somehow objectivist. Their reasoning? They reckon he only cares about the love of his life and nobody else. Without her, he wouldn't have been inspired to help anybody.

Let's ignore that BS for a second considering Clark grew up saving people as much as he could long before meeting Lois in MOS, I wonder what EXACTLY do these very same detractors have to say about Clark giving up his powers, and ultimately mankind itself, so he could be intimate with Lois in Superman II?

Stupid people.

[Gotham Knight]

I've read through this thread and it is interesting because I've been thinking a lot about this recently and in fact, I've thought about it a lot in the past but I rarely share my thoughts on everything.

The issue here is that the mindset of the creative people (Donner, Mank, the Salkinds, and Lester) insists that the status quo must be reset. Bizarre considering that this project started as and mostly remains a two part serial. Why could it not occur to them that this ought to be a three part love story? You can't play the 'well it was early in superhero movie history' card. Well ahead of the MCU, they knew to treat the story like chapters.

The most obvious solution to the Superman 2 ending problem is that you allow Lois to keep her friggin' memory. Shock of all shocks, right?

As far as I'm concerned, while Superman: the Movie remains incredible and Superman 2 (either version) is a grand follow-up, the best story of the Reeve era had yet to be told. Superman 3 would have excelled if the story were about Superman finally resolving this conflict, understanding that the all or none extreme is wrong. Superman 2 IS WRONG! Superman 3 should have been about Lois and Superman finding the balance. Kidder and Reeve could have sold this like crazy, but then again, they could sell you anything. They were magic.

Imagine the Daily Planet where the secret is now both Lois' and Clark's to hide. Imagine the strain that would place on them, Lois especially, knowing that Superman has decided for them both the terms of their loveless relationship. They end up together in the end after fighting another villain that would tie the loose ends together and allow the story to properly end. They fly into the sunset. The End.