Podcast analysing BvS

[The Laughing Fish]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I found a podcast that analyses the film from a narrative and thematic point of view:

http://jluniverse.podomatic.com/

This podcast had a special episode devoted to addressing nine supposed plot holes listed on another website criticsing the film, including the "Martha" moment, the argument that Batman should've gone after the Kryptonite spear himself to stop Doomsday, and Lex's plan: 

http://jluniverse.podomatic.com/entry/2016-04-07T20_49_56-07_00

If you can't be bothered to listen to the eleven minute podcast, you can read a transcript from this blog here:

http://comicandscreen.blogspot.com/2016/04/batman-v-superman-filling-in-purported.html

I think it's been a pretty good podcast so far. The host is rational and thoughtful in his analysis, and doesn't let emotion get the better of him like immature fanboys would.

[Dagenspear]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I found a podcast that analyses the film from a narrative and thematic point of view:

http://jluniverse.podomatic.com/

This podcast had a special episode devoted to addressing nine supposed plot holes listed on another website criticsing the film, including the "Martha" moment, the argument that Batman should've gone after the Kryptonite spear himself to stop Doomsday, and Lex's plan: 

http://jluniverse.podomatic.com/entry/2016-04-07T20_49_56-07_00

If you can't be bothered to listen to the eleven minute podcast, you can read a transcript from this blog here:

http://comicandscreen.blogspot.com/2016/04/batman-v-superman-filling-in-purported.html

I think it's been a pretty good podcast so far. The host is rational and thoughtful in his analysis, and doesn't let emotion get the better of him like immature fanboys would.

Insulting people with double standards isn't called for. The Martha thing and Batman not using the k spear aren't plot holes. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[The Dark Knight]

Very good find TLF. A lot of well made points there.

I'll start on this one:

Superman can hear Lois whenever she's in trouble but he can't hear that his mother is being held across the harbor. This is not a plot hole but a misunderstanding of Superman's powers. First of all, in the comics Superman is often portrayed as being able to hear all sounds at all times, even across the globe. But Superman in this movie universe is significantly powered down. He has super-hearing and x-ray vision but he's not omniscient. He can hear Lois in trouble because he probably keys in to her. In other words, his hearing and his sight are very effective when he's focusing it in on a specific target, but he can't just hear or see anything he wants out of nowhere. Also, when Lois is drowning, she's banging on the rubble. Martha, on the other hand, is bound and gagged.

In the 'Last Son' plot line, we also see what Snyder was referring to when he said 'Superman hears a lot of people crying out for help, but he can't save them all, he has to choose'. People grilled Snyder for these comments, and I don't really get why. It's true. In that comic, Clark is meeting with Perry White and he's stuck in that moment. He can hear people crying out for help, but he has to stay where he is. And when he does leave the office, he has to prioritise his task, which is locating Brainiac.

[The Laughing Fish]

Very good find TLF. A lot of well made points there.

I'll start on this one:

Superman can hear Lois whenever she's in trouble but he can't hear that his mother is being held across the harbor. This is not a plot hole but a misunderstanding of Superman's powers. First of all, in the comics Superman is often portrayed as being able to hear all sounds at all times, even across the globe. But Superman in this movie universe is significantly powered down. He has super-hearing and x-ray vision but he's not omniscient. He can hear Lois in trouble because he probably keys in to her. In other words, his hearing and his sight are very effective when he's focusing it in on a specific target, but he can't just hear or see anything he wants out of nowhere. Also, when Lois is drowning, she's banging on the rubble. Martha, on the other hand, is bound and gagged.

As much as I'm not that fond of the scene where the U.S. Senate hearing is interrupted by an explosion and Superman is the only survivor, I do understand that the scene is meant to be: A) Lex Luthor's victory by robbing Superman's chance to speak, and B) Superman explains to Lois he didn't sense anything because he wasn't focused. And the sentence I highlighted in bold explains Superman's limits to his powers further.

[Silver Nemesis]

In the 'Last Son' plot line, we also see what Snyder was referring to when he said 'Superman hears a lot of people crying out for help, but he can't save them all, he has to choose'. People grilled Snyder for these comments, and I don't really get why. It's true. In that comic, Clark is meeting with Perry White and he's stuck in that moment. He can hear people crying out for help, but he has to stay where he is. And when he does leave the office, he has to prioritise his task, which is locating Brainiac.

Are you sure you're not thinking of another story? Brainiac doesn't appear in Last Son. There is a scene in the first issue (Action Comics Vol 1 #844) where Clark's in a meeting with Perry and he hears people yelling for help, but that's because a meteor was about to crash into the city. And as soon as Clark realises this he promptly leaves the meeting, intercepts the meteor (which is actually a Kryptonian ship) and saves everyone.

[The Laughing Fish]

The host from that podcast wrote a blog entry about his analysis on Rotten Tomatoes. He claims RT has a flawed binary system that would automatically count a 5 or 6/10 rating for any movie as "rotten". Interesting.

http://comicandscreen.blogspot.com/2016/05/comparing-batman-v-superman-and-civil.html

[The Laughing Fish]

Towards the end of this episode that analyses how people treated Superman as some sort of God during that heroic montage sequence, the host read this passage written by a fellow fan on Tumblr, who claims critics and haters have completely misunderstood Clark's arc in this movie.

In closing here, we want to share some thoughts from Joons.tumblr.com, written by Chelsea. What follows is a paraphrasing of her post, and I'll put a link in the show notes: Chelsea wondered if some of the criticism directed toward BvS was from people who didn't distinguish between what's actually shown in the movie and the ironic points that it is trying to make.

She pointed out that we got a series of pundits talking about the Superman as a god, as an identity-less force of nature, accompanied by shots of The Superman ascending from heaven and performing Herculean deeds, but none of that is Superman's true nature.

We the audience know it isn't because the montage ends with Clark in casual clothes staring at the television, exhibiting a mix of trepidation and anger. This normal guy watches while the world talks about him like he's a vindictive, uncontainable spirit. They've built statues to him. They want him to do everything–and nothing. Their version of the Superman appears defiant and unreachable and all-powerful, but the Clark we see and know is sitting on his girlfriend's couch, wondering what to do, wondering what people see when they look at him.

To come away from that scene and think, "the film is trying to portray Clark as a God" is missing the really obvious point that the film knows Clark is so much more than that, that he's uncomfortable with even the suggestion of being held up as something perfect or unreachable. He hates it. The crucial flaw of every character in the film is their inability to see him as ordinary. Lois Lane's ability to see him that way allows her to discover evidence of Luthor's plot and to force Batman to rethink his assumptions. Luthor and Bruce cannot predict Clark's behavior because they don't think he will react in a human, emotional way. Everything about the way the story unfolds tells us that Clark is happily earthbound, that all attempts to frame him as divine are inherently flawed and even dangerous.

Critics can't seem to tell that the movie is presenting that view of Superman as a flaw, primarily, i think, because they are so used to superhero films being so literal about everything that they can't even recognize metaphors and ironic imagery when they appear. And that's their failure, not the film's. And certainly not Superman's.

Source: http://jluniverse.podomatic.com/entry/2016-06-06T05_14_43-07_00

Thoughts?

[The Laughing Fish]

I remember the podcast suggesting BvS followed a revenge tragedy structure for Batman's character arc. This is the description of what the term means:

Revenge tragedies often entwine a real or perceived injustice, violent murders, vengeful protagonists, evil antagonists, and supernatural beings like ghosts. Some revenge plays also include disguise as the characters seek their vengeance, a play inside of the play that mirrors the same story, and a monologue where a character lets the audience in on his or her thoughts and motivations. The protagonist is heroic in revenge tragedies, yet the vengeful actions often result in the character becoming mad or insane. The antagonist sometimes shows guilt, but too little to late. The main characters, and especially the protagonist, often end up dead in the final scene.

Source: https://study.com/academy/answer/what-are-the-characteristics-of-a-revenge-tragedy.html

I can make some connections with Batman's arc to what is described in the passage above. Despite his best efforts in saving people, Bruce looks on hopelessly as he watches Metropolis falls apart watching Superman fighting Zod, perceiving Kal-El for being responsible for bringing a war against humanity, which leads him towards a vengeful and self-destructive path towards his misguided hatred for Superman. The closest thing we get to a monologue is that poetic narration as he sees the "Beautiful Lie" of being taken to the light by bats in what could be seen as a calling for a great purpose, but really gave him more heartbreak and darkness to the point he became jaded, paranoid and cynical. Another example is the dialogue with Alfred maintaining his stance to take down Superman despite Alfred's protests over Superman not being the enemy, which Bruce refutes by referring to all the good people who have become corrupt in his experience as a veteran crimefighter. That paranoia and anger drives him mad in his mission to destroy Superman, and didn't understand how he was really destroying himself in the process. This is what leads to the critical moment at the end of the fight scene aka the Martha moment.

Continuing forward, Batman activates the Kryptonite, and he slices a cut into Superman's cheek. This connects to the earlier threat, "Do you bleed?" He does bleed, and yes Batman is the one who made him bleed, but his blood is red like ours and it shows Superman's vulnerability, which is perhaps the first piece of the puzzle that will contribute to Bruce's realignment, once he is able to break free from his tunnel vision.

We can also think of this slice across the face as Batman metaphorically defacing the symbol of hope for humanity, because Batman in this moment has lost that hope. It's sort of like a physical manifestation of Wallace's "False God" paint on the statute. This moment also shows very poignantly how far down this path of vengeance and brutality Batman has gone. We are watching him step right up to the edge of the abyss, and it seems like he might go through with it because he seems so committed.

And this is a good point to remind you about one of our favorite Batman v Superman blog posts, the revenge tragedy analysis from Pulpklatura on tumblr. (http://pulpklatura.tumblr.com/post/141843209469/batman-v-superman-the-modern-revenge-tragedy ). Chris Terrio himself, in an interview with the Wall Street Journal, said that he was digging in to revenge tragedy structure for his work on BvS and Pulpklatura traced out the full revenge tragedy arc for Batman in this movie. A typical revenge tragedy takes the character all the way to the moment where they are going to carry out the vengeance, and of course if they do they are actually harming themself, not just the person they're targeting. It's really their own soul that is on the line. And in the revenge tragedy structure, that all leads up to the moment called Anagnorisis -- the recognition or moment of clarity when the main character gains the understanding that was missing (because of his fatal flaw). So Batman's lack of understanding and his inability to see Superman's perspective has been very clear thus far in the movie, and we've seen his vengeance rising and rising. Now we've reached Batman's Anagnorisis.

Source: http://comicandscreen.blogspot.com/2016/10/jlu-scene-by-scene-batman-v-superman_26.html

For those who don't know what anagnorisis is the literary concept where a character makes an important discovery, and can be referred to realising the true nature of a situation, as well as recognising something about themselves.

Fascinating commentary by this podcast. I suppose another example of the revenge tragedy trope includes BR. Catwoman's desire for vengeance is driving her mad, but believes it's too late to escape with Batman because of the guilt of the crimes she had committed up to this point, and succeeds in carrying out her revenge over Max Shreck, leading up to her apparent death in front of Bruce. While she had actually survived, the greatest tragedy is her vengeance not only killed Shreck, but also prematurely killed her romance with Bruce.

Of course, this is only an amateurish take on my part, but it's brave effort to analyse it in this context nonetheless.

[thecolorsblend]

A three part analysis of BVS made by three huge fans:

Pt. 1- http://twotruefreaks.com/media/podcasts/TrentusMagnusPunchesReality/mp3/BeautifulLie.mp3
Pt. 2- http://twotruefreaks.com/media/podcasts/TrentusMagnusPunchesReality/mp3/MyWorld.mp3
Pt. 3- http://twotruefreaks.com/media/podcasts/TrentusMagnusPunchesReality/mp3/MenAreStillGood.mp3