Catwoman's nine lives

[Dagenspear]

I still think Storm was given a leadership role X3, but I thought she was second in command to Wolverine rather than acting as the main leader of the team. I'm sure that's what Catwoman meant too.

Anyway, does anybody else think that some people's criticism of Catwoman's supernatural abilities to be quite odd? I've noticed that a lot of these detractors typically prefer to play down the fantastiscal aspects of the Batman lore as much as possible. Which is strange since Batman's many villains include the zombie Solomon Grundy, Man-Bat, the shape shifting Clayface , centuries old Ra's all Ghul and the list goes on. It's fine if some people feel like this approach doesn't work for Catwoman, but the vibe I'm getting is they're excessively critical of all otherworldly villains.

There are several different takes on batman villains. But that doesn't mean I wanna see a batman movie or show where the joker is revealed to be a supernatural being living off of healing liquid. That doesn't make that good. The joker is batman's arch nemesis, so naturally, like batman, it fits that he should be human himself. It's a similar thing with catwoman. She's a significant connection for him. Why does she, much like the joker, need to be supernatural? They are both reflections of batman, who is a human. They, as characters, or figures in that world, don't need a supernatural aspect.

God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

[The Laughing Fish]

Thanks for the help TLF.

You're very welcome, but I was hoping that other post of mine would get people to talk about Selina's natural ability she hinted of having when she mentioned playing racquetball, instead of focusing on Halle Berry in X3.   

I think Burton mostly got the balance right in setting his Batman in a plausible world that could exist but nevertheless doesn't exist.  None of his characters, even Catwoman, assuming she didn't actually die from being pushed out of Shreck's skyscraper (and the way her descent was broken by the several awnings she fell through suggests that it is possible she did survive by 'natural' means), is explicitly magical regardless of how extreme their psychologies may be.  To Burton's credit, he left Catwoman's origins ambiguous and open to both a relatively realistic and a supernatural interpretation.

I agree that Burton tries to leave Catwoman open to interpretation, but I side with other posters in this thread who reckon she became supernatural. I can suspend my disbelief a lot when I watch BR, but I believe it would have to take more than a mortal human being to survive Schreck's attempted murder and falling into that greenhouse. You could say that Selina becoming Catwoman transformed her to become larger than life, like Bruce Wayne whenever he puts on the Batsuit.

Batman TAS had the Gotham of your preference (and mine as well, by the way), and the villains were sometimes gangsters and corrupt businessmen as well as more fantastical ones. So I think the two can truly co-exist. 

Exactly. There's no reason why the two have to be mutually exclusive.

[Catwoman]

Thanks for the help TLF.

You're very welcome, but I was hoping that other post of mine would get people to talk about Selina's natural ability she hinted of having when she mentioned playing racquetball, instead of focusing on Halle Berry in X3.   

I already tried to have that discussion here, it was like talking to a brick wall. "No no no, her sudden athleticism is a PLOT HOLE!" "No it wasn't a plot hole, the radioactive kitties caused it!" Ug. Were we the only two people to pay attention to the answering machine messages and her comments?

My theory about that is and has been that she had plenty of physical strength and agility and stuff all along, but it was trapped inside mousy Selina Kyle. Catwoman didn't have ANY inhibitions, which is how she became so strong, streetwise, and sexy. It unleashed everything that was right there inside Selina (and is right there inside all women, I believe) all along.

[johnnygobbs]

My theory about that is and has been that she had plenty of physical strength and agility and stuff all along, but it was trapped inside mousy Selina Kyle. Catwoman didn't have ANY inhibitions, which is how she became so strong, streetwise, and sexy. It unleashed everything that was right there inside Selina (and is right there inside all women, I believe) all along.

I totally agree that Selina was already athletic and capable of taking care of herself, but had, until her boss's attempt to murder her, repressed those abilities in order to fit into society's expectations of her as a woman.

The only point I disagree on is the notion that it's inside all women.  I think many, even possibly most, women have these skills, and that many of them are forced by society's expectations to repress them, as was the case with Selina, but just as some men are weak and incapable (physically and/or mentally), some women are too.  I couldn't, for instance, imagining someone like the Ice Princess ever becoming strong and streetwise even if she was somehow revived from her apparent death in the movie.  Unlike Selina, who was clearly always smart and athletic (as the answering machine message regarding racquetball implies) but nevertheless repressed those qualities, women like the Ice Princess and the Volunteer Bimbos were simply just stupid rather than pretending to be less intelligent.

[Edd Grayson]

I agree that despite the supernatural elements, Catwoman is not a "supernatural personality" of Selina in the movie, but she's Selina without the inhibitions.

[Dagenspear]

I love how of all the points I made and the comments I made the only thing anyone focused on was one f***ing offhanded remark quoting something I had read about Halle's conditions for returning as Storm. And yes, it was that she replaced Cyclops and Professor X in their leadership roles, which is why Ratner killed them both off which is what my issue was with it. Thanks for the help TLF. I know I should have cited it myself but I honestly didn't expect such a big hullabaloo over that comment. Live and learn.

I haven't seen it said anywhere that Halle requesting more of a role led to Scott and Xavier being killed off. Scott already had quite a smaller role. And I don't see how that led to Xavier's death. Ratner didn't write the script. The writers in the commentary for the movie said they enhanced her role because they like her.

God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

[Catwoman]

[riddler]

The supernatural element is one of the main reasons I feel that this film is inferior to the first. Not that it's a bad film, it's a superhero film with scary elements and that's awesome but the Joker in the first film was far closer to his comic counterpart than these villains were.

[JokerMeThis]

The supernatural element is one of the main reasons I feel that this film is inferior to the first. Not that it's a bad film, it's a superhero film with scary elements and that's awesome but the Joker in the first film was far closer to his comic counterpart than these villains were.

Although I think Batman '89 is a wonderful film and I love Jack's Joker I think Batman Returns is superior and I think Burton improved the Penguin and Catwoman characters. I like them better than other versions of them I've seen. And I enjoy the supernatural element of Catwoman and like what I see as subtle implications that Joker and Penguin may have supernatural origins as well. Such as Penguin seemingly being born evil which may be implied in the scene where he eats the cat. And Joker saying he's been dead and found it liberating. And that Jack Napier is dead and now he's the Joker. It's like Jack Napier really did die in that vat of chemicals but some evil supernatural force made him "born again" as this force of evil. It was almost like a Satanic miracle that he survived being shot at by the Batplane.

I'm not necessarily saying Penguin and Joker were supernatural. I just like what I perceive as the subtle implication and lack of clarity.

[Dagenspear]

It's an issue that I don't understand.

God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!