standing alone

[Catwoman]

i think part of why this one is so great is because it is its own movie and stands alone. it has a beginning, middle, and end and if it was the only batman movie ever, it would be perfect. he fights his greatest foe to the death and the story ends. being the first of the burton/schumacher dealio helps but look at begins, it ends with a direct reference to the dark knight (not the user) which ends with a cliffhanger for the dark knight rises. they are all tied together. returns references 89, forever references returns, b&r references forever.  89 just...is. i prefer returns for obvious reasons but more and more i'm seeing why everyone loves this one so much. i think this website is the cause of that lol but still.

does that make sense at all or are you all looking at your computer screens sideways like "what the hell is she on?"

[johnnygobbs]

I get you Catwoman,  It's one of the reasons this is still my all-time favourite live-action Batman film.  It is like you say a stand-alone film with a clear beginning, middle and end.  Unlike the other Batman films it doesn't require sequels or prequels to enhance it.  Burton managed to make a great sequel with Returns but in many ways the first film says all you need to know about Batman and Joker.

[DocLathropBrown]

To me, BATMAN is the single greatest standalone tale of the Dark Knight. It has everything you need in a Batman film. His archnemesis, his origins stripped to their basics, him being an outlaw, it has a gothic, mythic ganduer and a romanticism, along with one of the more believeable comic book romances. It's tragic, it's moving, it's operatic and fulfilling.

[Edd Grayson]

It's tough for me to decide which is more defining, Batman or The Dark Knight...

[Cobblepot4Mayor]

I really wish we could go back to this one film at a time formula. For me it was always more exciting speculating about what future movies might be as a kid than having a framework laid down by filmmakers. Back in 1993 I even wrote my own synopsis of what the then upcoming Batman 3 might feature. I got some right, writing it would have The Riddler and finally bring in Robin. I certainly didn't foresee the lack of Michael Keaton however. The new Spider-Man films are already in serious trouble with this "grand trilogy" notion. I'm tired already. These days everybody thinks they can make trilogies and stuff. In fact the trilogy concept, once so brilliant and exciting, has been almost pulverized into boredom now.

You must remember though the difference with Nolan I think was he really did plan the movies one at a time. Things like the Joker card and the Batman as fugitive angle seen in The Dark Knight. But I don't think he had a clue what those stories would be at those points. They were just bits for him to have a sort of launch pad when the time came to make them. In that sense that's fine with me. With the new Spider-Man films I get the impression they've laid out this elaborate story that needs 3 or 4 films to tell it and that's quite different.

I haven't seen Iron Man 3 yet at all. I just couldn't get excited about it. More of the same stuff with Paltrow and Downey Jr. The look of the film also looks exactly the same from clips and trailers. I really wish filmmakers had the confidence to completely change the things around from movie to movie. These days filmmakers tend to establish a tone and then stick with it but after a while it does get dull and repetitive for me. This is why Batman Returns is such a unique and underrated sequel. Apart from Keaton, Hingle, Michael Gough and that Batmobile everything looks totally different. If those guys weren't involved you really wouldn't think this was a sequel at all to Batman. And I love that. Giving each film it's own unique identity and style. I get far more enjoyment out of the Batman pictures for this reason than any other comic book films.

[johnnygobbs]

At the risk of going off track I'm not sure what you mean Cobblepot4Mayor.  What comic-book franchises have so far been laid out as a mapped-out trilogy?  Like you state, Nolan's Dark Knight series wasn't initially designed in such a manner and as far as I'm aware the new Spider-Man series hasn't been mapped-out in advance beyond a bare-bones 'The Death of Gwen Stacy' narrative arc.  Besides which, I understand that the people behind 'The Amazing Spider-Man' films intend for that franchise to go on for way beyond three movies.

Personally, I don't have a problem with a bit of pre-planning and narrative coherency.  It makes for a far more satisfying series of films than say the wretched X-Men movies which strain to maintain continuity but seem to increasingly tie their filmmakers in knots due to the complex, random nature of their plots, the arbitrary introduction of gimmicky 'easter egg' characters who serve no narrative function other than to provide a one-scene novelty, and the lack of casting consistency and manner in which important characters (i.e. Cyclops) are written out of the series on an apparent whim that is akin to a high turnover TV soap-opera than a carefully coordinated film series ala Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter.  Suffice to say, I hope that filmmakers will now give at least a semi-conscious consideration as to the direction they want a particular comic-book franchise to go, film-for-film, because I think that type of strategy will pay dividends when it comes to later viewing the films back-to-back as a continuous narrative.

However, I do agree that the self-contained nature of the Burton Batman films work because there was no pain-staking attempt to try and link Batman with Batman Returns, and that Batman works perfectly well as a one-off movie in which all the narrative ends have apparently been tied up.  Although Batman Returns is clearly a sequel with several returning cast members and specific references to absent Vicki Vale and makes sense in terms of Bruce's apparent arc between movies (it is clear that killing the Joker hasn't been able to satiate his need to be Batman and that this pathological need has destroyed his relationship with Vicki his one potential lifeline to a 'normal' life) Burton and co don't seem to be bending over backwards to tie the two films together and uniquely for a sequel Batman Returns works just as well as a self-contained movie, that requires no real familiarity with its predecessor, as it does as a continuation of the unofficial saga.