Jokers' Battle: Nicholson v Ledger

[Edd Grayson]

Round 1: A defining quote


Nicholson: Now, I can be theatrical, and maybe even a little rough - but one thing I am not, is a *killer*. I am an artist. I *love* a good party. So, truce. Commence au festival!

Ledger: Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!

Now, which one of these sounds more like the Clown Pince of Crime? To me, it's Nicholson.

But, I am a Nicholson fanboy. So, I want you to bring your own opinion and other arguments for both sides.

[The Dark Knight]

Nicholson is my Joker and that will always be the case.

The Nicholson quote captures the Joker pretty darn well in such a short moment.

Theatrical? Yes.
Rough? Yes.
Killler? Yes - Here he says he's not but Joker is also a manipulative liar.
Artist - In his mind, yes.
Party? He's the Party Man. Ask Prince.

[Edd Grayson]

Incidentally, I love Prince's Batman-themed songs.

[The Laughing Fish]

My favourite scene with Nicholson's Joker would have to be where he plays Partyman out loud as he and his goons dance around the dead bodies lying inside the museum and graffiti everything on display. Is it wrong to find humour in that? 

[GBglide]

Incidentally, I love Prince's Batman-themed songs.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. 

[The Dark Knight]

My favourite scene with Nicholson's Joker would have to be where he plays Partyman out loud as he and his goons dance around the dead bodies lying inside the museum and graffiti everything on display. Is it wrong to find humour in that? 

Not at all. When one feels depressed, or holds a deep seated rage, they fully realise why The Joker is perfect as Batman's arch-enemy. We all suffer at points in life. We can either decide to endure and be introspective. Dark like Batman. Stew over things, etc. Or we can decide to snap and free our inhibitions. The Joker is that on an extreme level.

[Cobblepot4Mayor]

I very much enjoy them both but I grew up with Nicholson and could never betray him.

I thought his makeup was superb. So much more exciting to see than Ledger's because it was a direct translation from the comics almost. Equally so in certain ways his wardrobe (mostly his Cathedral garb at the end with the fedora). An amazing piece of work by Nick Dudman. Nicholson of course has a pretty amazing face just like Michael Keaton. Just by raising an eyebrow is enough to make me laugh or smile. He was perfect for Joker facial expressions even without a line or speech to entertain you.

Nicholson absolutely nailed the laugh far more effectively than Ledger (which was for me the only thing he screwed up on). Nicholson's is so funny and at the same time creepy. I defy anyone who didn't feel a small tingle up their spine when he first stumbled up the doctor's staircase in the dark laughing maniacally.

It does upset me when people say he wasn't as evil or unbalanced as Ledger. To me he always was. We're told he committed an assault with a deadly weapon at just age 15. This Joker is still a sadistic serial killer who enjoys his sick and senseless murder of innocents. There is certainly no incorruptable mission agenda here. He's certainly not a tragic figure either as we're led to assume Ledger's might be. I always figured as a kid he's basically the same twisted bad dude as Clarence Boddiker was in Robocop. A crime file several shelves long of very sadistic crimes even before he was The Joker. That's more scary and evil to me. After all he's an "A1 nut boy". In just a few lines Sam Hamm paints a perfect picture of this Joker. You have to appreciate the subtleness.

[Edd Grayson]

Jack was subtle at times and sometimes he was "in your face" crazy. But THAT's the Joker.

[The Laughing Fish]

I very much enjoy them both but I grew up with Nicholson and could never betray him.

I thought his makeup was superb. So much more exciting to see than Ledger's because it was a direct translation from the comics almost. Equally so in certain ways his wardrobe (mostly his Cathedral garb at the end with the fedora). An amazing piece of work by Nick Dudman. Nicholson of course has a pretty amazing face just like Michael Keaton. Just by raising an eyebrow is enough to make me laugh or smile. He was perfect for Joker facial expressions even without a line or speech to entertain you.

Nicholson absolutely nailed the laugh far more effectively than Ledger (which was for me the only thing he screwed up on). Nicholson's is so funny and at the same time creepy. I defy anyone who didn't feel a small tingle up their spine when he first stumbled up the doctor's staircase in the dark laughing maniacally.

It does upset me when people say he wasn't as evil or unbalanced as Ledger. To me he always was. We're told he committed an assault with a deadly weapon at just age 15. This Joker is still a sadistic serial killer who enjoys his sick and senseless murder of innocents. There is certainly no incorruptable mission agenda here. He's certainly not a tragic figure either as we're led to assume Ledger's might be. I always figured as a kid he's basically the same twisted bad dude as Clarence Boddiker was in Robocop. A crime file several shelves long of very sadistic crimes even before he was The Joker. That's more scary and evil to me. After all he's an "A1 nut boy". In just a few lines Sam Hamm paints a perfect picture of this Joker. You have to appreciate the subtleness.

Unfortunately, within the last seven years there has been this attitude from plenty of fans who believe that any sort of flamboyant black comedy detracts a film from being too "dark" and "gritty". In their mind, they think as long as a movie takes itself so seriously that it's suddenly better than those that don't. Usually these sort of people tend to have a double standard because they tend to overlook faults compared to other movies they would otherwise criticize.

For me, what always intrigued me about the Joker in all media, not only in Nicholson's portrayal, was the underestimating factor about him. As someone said in a blog years ago, the Joker is a perfect dichotomy - on the outside he looks harmless and innocent; if you look at him he looks like a circus clown that could entertain children. On the inside however, he is deranged to the point he can hack you to death in pieces (while making a tasteless joke about it). There is this unpredictable feeling about the Joker. It also contrasts and contradicts the imagery between Batman and Joker:

• Batman - whose description of a black, demonic, brooding and grim figure that people would normally identify as evil, is actually good.
• The Joker - whose description of a happy, colorful, playful and innocent-looking figure that many would have mistaken to be harmless, is actually evil.

And this is the sort of thing that disappoints most about Joker in The Dark Knight. There is no subtlety about him. He looks AND acts insane, so depraved to the point I have a hard time believing anyone, not even the mentally ill, would tolerate his insanity. It also didn't help he took himself way too seriously as well. The only time I felt that Ledger resembled anything like the Joker was when he made that "very poor choice of words" remark at the end of the penthouse scene.

[thecolorsblend]

Have to agree. One thing that always rang false to me was the bit where the Joker decides to fed the Chechen to the dogs. He says he'll feed the Chechen to the dogs with a tone of frustration and a little vindictiveness. It's just hard to believe in as a Joker line. If TDK had a quintessential Joker line, the "pooches" line was it... but the delivery is just off. Shouldn't it have been glee? Not sure if I should blame Ledger or Nolan but I think it should've been played as a sick and poetic joke rather than the spiteful retort that it was. Of all people, the Joker would think it's friggin hilarious that the Chechen gets gobbled up by the same dogs to which he'd probably fed some of his enemies. It isn't so much that the Chechen dies (although I guess there's that) so much as how he's going to die. The Joker would eat it up with a spoon and probably hang around to watch it happen rather than bark angrily at one of his lackies to do the job for him while he makes a few terrorist threats. It's a small moment but to me it kind of illustrates that Nolan didn't really understand what drives the character.