The Joker's goons in the cathedral scene: plot hole, or not?

[The Laughing Fish]

I remember looking at B89's IMDB page and one of the plot holes listed for the film had mentioned how the Joker's goons were pursuing Batman while Joker took Vicki hostage and wasted time till the helicopter arrived.

But is it really a plot hole? It's true that we didn't see the Joker command his goons to check the area or whatever, but I thought they'd be aware by now that Batman is hard to kill. And I always thought that it would've been more than likely that the goons spotted Batman walking out of the wreckage of the Batwing. I don't think any of this is that far-fetched. Does anyone else agree?

[DocLathropBrown]

The thing is, I'm sure that the action scene in the Belltower was added at Jon Peters' insistence. And the thing is, they clearly wanted it to be a surprise, so it was forced to be a plot hole to surprise the audience. If they had telegraphed the entry of the thugs into the Cathedral, the audience would have been expecting a fight.

I don't find it farfetched at all, frankly. It never bothered me, because it's not like Joker goons weren't there, they were all over the place due to the parade! A few of them took off into the Cathedral when Batman started shooting 'em up. Simple as that. I mean, nobody notices that the goons all were gone by the time of the Joker/Batwing face-off? Some of 'em had to go somewhere.

[The Dark Knight]

It's not really a plot hole. It's more of a plot convenience. But one that can explained in a few different ways.

The cathedral is the highest point in the city. Therefore it provides the best view. Perhaps some goons were in there all along, surveying the situation as it developed? Or perhaps they simply fled from Batman's machine gunning batwing?

Either way, the goons presence inside the cathedral makes the sequence better.

[Cobblepot4Mayor]

The movie's comic book adaptation features a panel showing the Goons entering the Cathedral along with The Joker as he takes Vicki hostage in front of the Batwing wreckage.

I imagined The Joker always planned to use the location as his escape staging point. He's not exactly going anywhere fast on that cake float is he? So it would make sense the Goons would be already there, at the ready to go.

If he always planned to escape by air then destroying the Batwing in the first place suddenly makes a lot more sense to do as a necessary action, rather than merely having some wild fun. The heavily armed Bat vehicle could easily catch up with that Joker copter so blowing it out of the sky, to ensure that Cathedral sky escape, had to be factored into the plan.

[Grissom]

The Joker plans ahead. Wherever his escape route would have been (the Cathedral may just have been one of several), he had his people there. That's why he radios stating the Cathedral because that's the pickup point he chose or was the more feasible of all the options. 

[The Dark Knight]

If he always planned to escape by air then destroying the Batwing in the first place suddenly makes a lot more sense to do as a necessary action, rather than merely having some wild fun. The heavily armed Bat vehicle could easily catch up with that Joker copter so blowing it out of the sky, to ensure that Cathedral sky escape, had to be factored into the plan.

Good point.

The Joker could've easily had the helicopter land on the street for his getaway. But I suppose where's the fun in that? He prolonged his game.

[Slash Man]

Never saw the error. While Lawrence and the black Joker goon were not seen at the parade, it could have very well been a lookout post. Phillip Tan's character WAS at the parade, and followed the Joker as he ascended to the top. The police were hot on his trail, but Joker was about to make a clean getaway by racing to the top, and outrunning them at the same time. Joker actually overestimated his wait time, which gave Batman some time to beat him senseless.

[Paul (ral)]

What we have to realise is that more time has passed between the Batwing crash and Vicki appearing.

When the Batwing crashes the cathedral doors are SHUT. The blast doesn't open them.

When Vicki shows up the door is open. It's reasonable to assume that Joker and some goons got there first, assumed Batman was toast and sought to escape (the inevitable police presence) via helicopter. Joker spots Vicki's approach (just before he makes the call to the helicopter) and kidnaps her as the goons make their way up the cathedral ahead of them.

Simple.