Lack of respect for Batman Returns?

[Bobthegoon89]

I shouldn't be posting in here, should be using the original thread, but I have to say....people who like the Batman character and don't like Batman Returns are insane.

It's defintely the one my family get uncomfortable with to this day lol My sister who is autistic is frightened by the Penguin's birth scene. She panics at pregnancy scenes in movies and tv lol Though this is slightly worse cos you don't see what's happening.

Even some comic creators have attacked Batman Returns for pretty stupid reasons. I can't remember the artists name but he was less than impressed with the action scenes. What a spoilsport.

[Silver Nemesis]

Even some comic creators have attacked Batman Returns for pretty stupid reasons. I can't remember the artists name but he was less than impressed with the action scenes. What a spoilsport.

You're thinking of Matt Wagner:

"The Burton films were strong on atmosphere but obviously showed that Burton was more interested in the misfit villains than in his title character. In fact, BATMAN RETURNS is often credited as being a better film but I f***ing HATED how it made Batman little more than just another costumed creep, little better than the villains he's pursuing.
Additionally, Burton is so blatantly NOT an action director. That aspect of both his films just sucked."

http://www.batman-on-film.com/interview_mattwagner_jett_2006.html

I'm not sure if Burton actually directed the action scenes in the Batman films. I thought I read somewhere that the action in Batman Returns was shot by second unit director Max Kleven, whose other credits include Rollerball, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, Spider-Man and the Back to the Future trilogy. Personally, I think he's a pretty good action director.

[Bobthegoon89]

Even some comic creators have attacked Batman Returns for pretty stupid reasons. I can't remember the artists name but he was less than impressed with the action scenes. What a spoilsport.

You're thinking of Matt Wagner:

"The Burton films were strong on atmosphere but obviously showed that Burton was more interested in the misfit villains than in his title character. In fact, BATMAN RETURNS is often credited as being a better film but I f***ing HATED how it made Batman little more than just another costumed creep, little better than the villains he's pursuing.
Additionally, Burton is so blatantly NOT an action director. That aspect of both his films just sucked."

http://www.batman-on-film.com/interview_mattwagner_jett_2006.html

I'm not sure if Burton actually directed the action scenes in the Batman films. I thought I read somewhere that the action in Batman Returns was shot by second unit director Max Kleven, whose other credits include Rollerball, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, Spider-Man and the Back to the Future trilogy. Personally, I think he's a pretty good action director.

I'm unfamilar with Matt Wagner. What books has he done? I've probably seen his stuff somewhere. Well don't all action films rely on 2nd units and such? Some of those films you listed are also faves of mine. So no complaints there. All good stuff.

While I enjoyed the action stuff in the new Batman's at least I could actually SEE what Batman was doing in Burton's fights. In Begins they were edited so fast and gave me a good headache trying to focus. Though I did like Ra's al ghul's quote: "This is not a dance!". Which to me sounded like a direct pun on the dance like fighting styles in the other movies. But done in good taste.

I will agree however that there is a problem with Batman's killing spree mentality. But I think you can look too deeply into this stuff. For instance the scene with the big strongman being blown up with dynamite planted by Batman. Today it's controversial in the extreme. However it was meant to be funny. And Michael Keaton's manic grin always puts "a smile on that face" for me. Same with the scene where he pulls the wall out from behind Selena's mugger. Frankly I think Batman has always bordered on the severe even in comics. He cripples a guy for life in Dark Knight Returns and breaks a few bones of the Mutant's leader while he's on that roll. I'm not surprised the filmmakers got the wrong end of the stick so to speak.

The thing that annoys me more actually is this idea that it's wrong to focus on the villains rather than Batman. Preposterous. Their the best villains comics have. Dan Didio once said their characters that could almost exist on their own. Brian Bolland even stated he felt Joker was a more fascinating and rounded character whereas Batman works far better when he's 2 dimensional, being more of a shadow personality. Exactly the approach Burton took and pretty much how it was done in The Killing Joke. Nobody complained then. Even Batman Year One was less about Batman than it was about Gordon. I certainly wish I could read Wagner's thoughts on The Dark Knight which was more Joker and Two-Face centred than Batman based let's face it. Sometimes the best Batman's don't always need to shine a light 100% on Bruce Wayne.

[Paul (ral)]

I think Burton was more involved in action in Returns.

Dave Lea spoke about B89 how he didn't see Burton much cause he was 2 nd unit and Tim was 1st unit.

However he worked with Tim a lot more on Returns.

[Silver Nemesis]

I'm unfamilar with Matt Wagner. What books has he done?

In terms of Batman-related material, Wagner worked on Batman and the Monster Men (2006), Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman: Trinity (2003) and several issues of Legends of the Dark Knight.