Joker: Folie à Deux (2024)

[The Dark Knight]

both sequels having their very own original Looney Tunes intros. Your mileage may vary, but I appreciate the different approach and taking a big swing.

Glad you're liking the movie overall, and interesting comparison. You're on the money. That opening intro felt consistent with what came later in the musical delusions too. Especially in one specific scene involving Arthur and Lee at Arkham. I think those montages fit in cleanly and transitioned in a logical way. For a film set in two main locations they provided a reprieve from the day to day existence. They're the 'comic' element juxtaposed to the brutal reality. I found the song usage charming, particularly Dancing in the Moonlight and again Sinatra's That's Life. No matter how bad things are music can soothe the soul and give a sense of hope. Billy Joel's My Life pops up as well, which has very relevant lyrics. Loved that.

[Travesty]

I don't know how I feel about it. I have to digest it a little. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it, either.

I dunno?

I wasn't a fan of the musical numbers. I think a few worked, but I felt there were way too many. Again, I have to think about this for a bit.

[The Joker]

Glad you're liking the movie overall, and interesting comparison. You're on the money. That opening intro felt consistent with what came later in the musical delusions too. Especially in one specific scene involving Arthur and Lee at Arkham. I think those montages fit in cleanly and transitioned in a logical way.

I think one of the things you and I have in common, is that we don't mind films that lend into the unconventional or quirkiness (for instance I actually like the Mel Gibson movie "The Beaver" even though it's incredibly quirky, and I honestly wouldn't even call it a 'good' movie, but the offbeat comical nature of it all is just too fascinating), and I think it's safe to say that "Joker Folie à Deux" also falls into this sort of category.

Prior to Disney's MCU, and the whole "shared universe" deal, comic book films were largely self contained cinematic Elseworlds/What Ifs that were self contained stories. Thus giving whatever filmmaker/storyteller the creative freedom to put their own unique stamp on the IP . Phillips' "Joker" films are definitely a throwback to that era, and being a guy who's just so beyond tired of the "shared universe" shtick (it was a novelty there for a while, but eventually the concept begins to buckle under it's own weight in terms of continuity and films coming across as same old, same old), I can't help but appreciate the brazenness of this sequel's very unique vision of what a follow up story to Arthur Fleck's Joker would be like. At the same time, I can absolutely understand anyone who doesn't like the approach taken with this. As "Joker Folie à Deux" does squash any preconceived notions of a sequel.

With what TDK said about musical delusions, I agree wholeheartedly. It's about insanity being locked up in a vacuum. Which, at this stage, has Arthur experiencing delusions relating to his life, what he had done, and his new connection to 'Lee'. With 'Lee' she's continually pushing Fleck, even though she at the same time, is fully aware that Arthur's past actions has obviously broken him. In the grand scheme, this isn't a bother to 'Lee'. Much like the masses, the media, and the character of Wayne Gale from "Natural Born Killers", it's about selfishness, and theatre. She, like the audience, is focused on wanting a show. Which is meta aspect of this film I think (and which also goes along with my Gremlins 2 comparisons as that film assuredly had it's share of meta moments as well).

 

For a film set in two main locations they provided a reprieve from the day to day existence. They're the 'comic' element juxtaposed to the brutal reality. I found the song usage charming, particularly Dancing in the Moonlight and again Sinatra's That's Life. No matter how bad things are music can soothe the soul and give a sense of hope. Billy Joel's My Life pops up as well, which has very relevant lyrics. Loved that.

Absolutely! I also liked the rendition of the Carpenter's "Close to you", and Arthur's sequence singing Anthony Newley's "The Joker".

[The Dark Knight]

I think one of the things you and I have in common, is that we don't mind films that lend into the unconventional or quirkiness (for instance I actually like the Mel Gibson movie "The Beaver" even though it's incredibly quirky, and I honestly wouldn't even call it a 'good' movie, but the offbeat comical nature of it all is just too fascinating), and I think it's safe to say that "Joker Folie à Deux" also falls into this sort of category.

Accurate. We already have the joybuzzing permawhite Joker of Nicholson and the agent of chaos from Ledger. There's room for Arthur's broken man who had his big moment on Murray Franklin and then was put in jail. What also needs to be considered about the ending is that Arthur WAS going to get the electric chair as the comic version would in reality anyway. Folie A Deux presents that reality in a stark way.

With what TDK said about musical delusions, I agree wholeheartedly. It's about insanity being locked up in a vacuum. Which, at this stage, has Arthur experiencing delusions relating to his life, what he had done, and his new connection to 'Lee'. With 'Lee' she's continually pushing Fleck, even though she at the same time, is fully aware that Arthur's past actions has obviously broken him. In the grand scheme, this isn't a bother to 'Lee'. Much like the masses, the media, and the character of Wayne Gale from "Natural Born Killers", it's about selfishness, and theatre. She, like the audience, is focused on wanting a show. Which is meta aspect of this film I think (and which also goes along with my Gremlins 2 comparisons as that film assuredly had it's share of meta moments as well).

The movie was powerful to me personally because it solidified a lot of how I've felt as an adult. That nothing really matters and nobody cares. We're really just on our own and things go through the motions. We all build things up in our imaginations that often don't match reality. Lee had celebrity worship. Arthur had delusional longing for love. She gave Arthur a sense of purpose and excitement he was lacking. I'm sure he knew Lee was a liar, but he had no one else. These movies are about the human condition and are very effective. I walked out of the cinema a different person to the one I entered, and was pondering what I had seen for hours after.

[The Joker]

I figured this film would easily wind up being divisive among fans and general audiences when I saw it this past Thurs, but holy toledo! The reactions I've read online, and including the lethargic box office numbers, sure is making it seem like Joker 2 is (almost) just flat out universally despised. I think I saw on X where "CinemaScore" or something giving it the worst score ever for a comic book movie. That, to be clear, makes Joker 2, in their estimation, worse than anything comic book related that Disney/Warners/Fox/Sony/ect has ever produced! Something I can't help but find both interesting, and incredibly amusing. LOL 

Honestly, I can't sit here and lie and tell someone I would much rather watch something like "The Marvels", or "Blue Beetle", or "Morbius" over Joker 2 cause, well, that would be lying wouldn't it? 

Accurate. We already have the joybuzzing permawhite Joker of Nicholson and the agent of chaos from Ledger. There's room for Arthur's broken man who had his big moment on Murray Franklin and then was put in jail. What also needs to be considered about the ending is that Arthur WAS going to get the electric chair as the comic version would in reality anyway. Folie A Deux presents that reality in a stark way.

Right on. I've always chose to view these films as cinematic elseworlds tales that doesn't have to follow the comic iteration history to a T, and hardly any really do. Which is good, cause I'd want a filmmaker to have the creative freedom to experiment, rather than be beholden to standard formula. Which tends to get schlocky after awhile. 

The movie was powerful to me personally because it solidified a lot of how I've felt as an adult. That nothing really matters and nobody cares. We're really just on our own and things go through the motions. We all build things up in our imaginations that often don't match reality. Lee had celebrity worship. Arthur had delusional longing for love. She gave Arthur a sense of purpose and excitement he was lacking. I'm sure he knew Lee was a liar, but he had no one else. These movies are about the human condition and are very effective. I walked out of the cinema a different person to the one I entered, and was pondering what I had seen for hours after.

Yeah, there was definitely a inverted dysfunctional codependency angle where Arthur was the one more attached where classically it's the other way around. Like you, I enjoyed and appreciate the unique experiment. It's incredibly atypical for sure, and very much unlike any comic book related movie that I am aware of.

[The Dark Knight]

I figured this film would easily wind up being divisive among fans and general audiences when I saw it this past Thurs, but holy toledo! The reactions I've read online, and including the lethargic box office numbers, sure is making it seem like Joker 2 is (almost) just flat out universally despised. I think I saw on X where "CinemaScore" or something giving it the worst score ever for a comic book movie. That, to be clear, makes Joker 2, in their estimation, worse than anything comic book related that Disney/Warners/Fox/Sony/ect has ever produced! Something I can't help but find both interesting, and incredibly amusing. LOL 

Honestly, I can't sit here and lie and tell someone I would much rather watch something like "The Marvels", or "Blue Beetle", or "Morbius" over Joker 2 cause, well, that would be lying wouldn't it? 

Yeah. The reaction has become hysterically hyperbolic. It makes the rating system absolutely worthless in my eyes if a well made film like Folie A Deux gets the tag of worst comic based film ever from rage scores of 1/5. That's the real joke. Even the original Joker movie has a low score, which to me says a lot. Folie A Deux will now have a bad reputation because of Rotten Tomatoes and a lot of sheep will go along with it. Right now I put the two Joker films up there with the Burton duology in terms of my appreciation.

[Travesty]

Ok, I'm skimming this thread and I can see a few of you are liking the movie. After sitting on it for a few days, I'm just not feeling it. I'm not trying to bring anything down, but it is what it is. I don't like this movie overall. Sure, it's not the worst thing(I wont be giving it below a 5), but I expecting much higher from Todd Phillips....MUCH higher!

Man, I really wanted to love this. I really did. I dunno? This was a bummer for me.

Maybe I'll deep dive into it later, but I rather not at this point. I'll let you guys do your thing. Just ignore me. It is what it is. I wanted to like it.

I guess I'll see what everyone is saying outside of here. I still haven't read or watched any reviews. I think I'll queue up some YT reviews tonight. Again, I'm pretty bummed on this one. More so than I was expecting.

Bummer....

[The Dark Knight]

I guess I'll see what everyone is saying outside of here. I still haven't read or watched any reviews. I think I'll queue up some YT reviews tonight. Again, I'm pretty bummed on this one. More so than I was expecting.

I've done enough of that and I'm going to stop. It's too frustrating. I get that the film wasn't what some were expecting (that's fine) but a lot of the feedback has become a hate tsunami that ignores or dismisses what's contained within.

The supporters setting off the car bomb outside court shows the persona really has taken on a life of its own. The Joker movement already killed Thomas and Martha Wayne in the first movie, no doubt inspiring young Bruce to eventually don the cape and cowl. Arthur was never going to meet Batman either because their age disparity was too great. I just don't have a problem with what we see here in this particular context.

Arthur ends up as a victim of the same violence he was empowering. That's Life playing over the end credits feels like a fitting statement. A dream (a relationship with Lee) has been stomped, Arthur has rolled up into a big ball and died, and that's life.

The TV movie made about his rise to prominence made him a public commodity and bigger in their imaginations. I love talking about this stuff. Tonally it's no different to the original in my opinion, just expanded. Arthur hallucinated about being on Murray's show at the beginning of film one. We did have musical montages. This did push the envelope but at the same time doesn't feel out of left field to me.

[The Joker]

Yeah. The reaction has become hysterically hyperbolic. It makes the rating system absolutely worthless in my eyes if a well made film like Folie A Deux gets the tag of worst comic based film ever from rage scores of 1/5. That's the real joke. Even the original Joker movie has a low score, which to me says a lot. Folie A Deux will now have a bad reputation because of Rotten Tomatoes and a lot of sheep will go along with it.

Yeah, I just can't imagine thinking with a clear head, "Hey! You know what? Catwoman with Halle Berry, or Josh Trank's Fantastic Four are actually better than Joker 2!"

What a time to be alive.

Right now I put the two Joker films up there with the Burton duology in terms of my appreciation.

You know something? I'm kinda right there with you on this. A friend of mine often participate in friendly debates every so often about what Batman movies we like the best. He's in the Nolan camp cause he prefers the more serious/hyper realistic take, where I continually state that I am firmly in the Burton camp cause I prefer the gothic/aesthetic/fantasical interpretation. I honestly was really into the Nolan films as they were released, but I've honestly find myself reaching for my copy of Joker to rewatch more often in the past 4-5 years or so. To me, Joker 2 kinda hit that sweet spot between the more solemn and leaning more into the illusory...

Ok, I'm skimming this thread and I can see a few of you are liking the movie. After sitting on it for a few days, I'm just not feeling it. I'm not trying to bring anything down, but it is what it is. I don't like this movie overall. Sure, it's not the worst thing(I wont be giving it below a 5), but I expecting much higher from Todd Phillips....MUCH higher!

Man, I really wanted to love this. I really did. I dunno? This was a bummer for me.

Maybe I'll deep dive into it later, but I rather not at this point. I'll let you guys do your thing. Just ignore me. It is what it is. I wanted to like it.

I guess I'll see what everyone is saying outside of here. I still haven't read or watched any reviews. I think I'll queue up some YT reviews tonight. Again, I'm pretty bummed on this one. More so than I was expecting.

Bummer....

Perfectly understandable.

I've done enough of that and I'm going to stop. It's too frustrating. I get that the film wasn't what some were expecting (that's fine) but a lot of the feedback has become a hate tsunami that ignores or dismisses what's contained within.

The supporters setting off the car bomb outside court shows the persona really has taken on a life of its own. The Joker movement already killed Thomas and Martha Wayne in the first movie, no doubt inspiring young Bruce to eventually don the cape and cowl. Arthur was never going to meet Batman either because their age disparity was too great. I just don't have a problem with what we see here in this particular context.

Arthur ends up as a victim of the same violence he was empowering. That's Life playing over the end credits feels like a fitting statement. A dream (a relationship with Lee) has been stomped, Arthur has rolled up into a big ball and died, and that's life.

The TV movie made about his rise to prominence made him a public commodity and bigger in their imaginations. I love talking about this stuff. Tonally it's no different to the original in my opinion, just expanded. Arthur hallucinated about being on Murray's show at the beginning of film one. We did have musical montages. This did push the envelope but at the same time doesn't feel out of left field to me.

Admittedly, I walked out thinking it was very different than Joker 2019, but hmmm ... that is food for thought, TDK. I can't say I disagree the more I think about it.

Just to talk about some positives, I have to say I really liked the WB Looney Tunes Joker intro that comically foretells Arthur as the Joker, and his "shadow".



Much like Joker 2019, I also was very keen on how the opening title card was incorporated. Such a great visual!

[The Dark Knight]

Just to talk about some positives, I have to say I really liked the WB Looney Tunes Joker intro that comically foretells Arthur as the Joker, and his "shadow".

It's a testament to you as a big fan of the character you can see the intent of what's going on: that Arthur can't match his shadow. I think the hard backlash is because viewers really do love the Joker as a character and see Folie A Deux as severely disrespecting him. I get that passion.

When Lee stands up and leaves the room that's exactly what we're seeing in real life with the negative feedback. Total abandonment of Arthur and rushing to elevate what Joker typically stands for. Comic Joker is complete bulletproof confidence and an ability to escape at will. That's not the case here.

The guards liked Arthur, but the inmates liked Joker. He had to straddle that line and eventually he chose to be Arthur. No choice has good outcomes, as the film depicts. It literally causes his death with the shanking in terms of the other prisoners, and it pushes Lee and his followers away. But he's the one being raped in there.

He had to listen to his friend being killed. Those guards were God. I imagine Arthur came to see how being Joker (as recently as the courtroom appearance) became more about pleasing others compared to his original gripe that drove him to murder in the first place. Acting as a comic book character has its limits on real people.