When did Batman retire? *Spoilers*

[eledoremassis02]

My mood on all this has soured. Keaton's Batman retired for 25 years? That doesn't wash with me, especially as someone who preferred a longer career for him. A 25 year retirement makes his sprightly return in the movie all the more absurd. Not really buying his reason for retiring in Andy's mind either. Is Batman, particularly this Batman, so mushy? We were told Batman's retirement was because he wasn't needed anymore. Gotham was safe. So which is it, Andy? I'd prefer the latter, but here he is twisting things in knots.

Our childhood Batman's lore is suddenly at the whim of a guy who popped up in recent years to direct The Flash? The B89 comic just didn't hit the mark in terms of providing a thematic or narrative continuation, and The Flash is no better really. It doesn't feel authentic because we know it's not from the original creative minds from back in the day. It's all well after the fact.

The Burton Batman universe is so specific in aesthetic and atmosphere that any attempt to continue it can't get close. Burton's two films had backstory but it was subtle, and let your mind wander to fill in your own blanks. Such as the trophy room being from Bruce's early travels. The whole thing should have just been left to F'ing be.

There is a deleted scene that does mention this story (young Barry reading it somewhere). But I think there is still an argument to be made that this is 100% the Burton Batman (and the theatrical edit offers and excuse for the Shumacher films to be cannon)

Edit: I rewatched the deleted scene and it's hinted that Keaton knows alot about time travel because he's looked into it to try and prevent himself from killing that guy.

[The Dark Knight]

There is a deleted scene that does mention this story (young Barry reading it somewhere). But I think there is still an argument to be made that this is 100% the Burton Batman (and the theatrical edit offers and excuse for the Shumacher films to be cannon)

Edit: I rewatched the deleted scene and it's hinted that Keaton knows alot about time travel because he's looked into it to try and prevent himself from killing that guy.

The father chose to be a criminal, and if he remained alive he's a poor role model for his child. He's better off without him and I think a hard nosed Batman could also take that view. Especially when he's still near the prime of his career. We're not talking about an old guy struggling to perform and having to pick up guns to stay alive. He should still be tough enough to mentally endure even if he's troubled by what happened, as was the case during the Venom storyline.

[Silver Nemesis]

Muschietti must be mistaken about the twenty-five year retirement. The Flashpoint scenes take place in 2013, right? Well twenty-five years before 2013 would've been 1988. That means Keaton's Bruce retired as Batman one year before he started as Batman.

The only explanation for this would be if Muschietti misspoke and meant that Keaton's Batman had retired twenty-five years before 2023, which would mean he'd actually been retired for fifteen years prior to 2013. Or if Bruce started being Batman earlier in the Flashpoint universe and the events of B89 and BR took place prior to 1988.

It would make more sense if he'd retired for fifteen years beginning in 1998 or ten years starting in 2003. A twenty-five year retirement beginning in 1988 erases his entire career.

[The Dark Knight]

A possibility is that Bruce lied about Gotham now being one of the safest cities to hide his shame about the real reason for retiring. But I'm also wondering if the cleaned up Gotham comment is meant to be legit in the Theatrical cut because the dead criminal backstory was deleted.

[The Laughing Fish]

Batman has been retired for 25 years (whenever that is) 2:47

He's talking about catching up with Batman after 30 years. So then it seems he was Batman till around 1997/8ish wich is rougly when the film series ended.

He quits because he kills a bad guy infront of kid and that causes him to shut away his Batman side. Wich is exactly what I thought the Dark Knight Returns reference was with the alcohol. I do think this isnt 100% the definitive reason given whats explained in the film.

There is a deleted scene that does mention this story (young Barry reading it somewhere). But I think there is still an argument to be made that this is 100% the Burton Batman (and the theatrical edit offers and excuse for the Shumacher films to be cannon)

Edit: I rewatched the deleted scene and it's hinted that Keaton knows alot about time travel because he's looked into it to try and prevent himself from killing that guy.

This must be the deleted scene you're talking about:

https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1682851290542403584

For anybody who can't see the video, this how it goes: Batman, Barry and the Flash are taking a trip to Siberia in the Batwing. Flash tells the other Barry about the rumour of Batman killing the criminal in front of his kid and that might be the real reason why he quit. Flash also suspected Batman already had experience with time travel, and that would explain how he understood the concept so perfectly. The other Barry realises this and says Batman might be trying to fix the timeline, like he tried to fix his own. Flash urged Barry to ask Batman, but Barry refuses, just as Batman announces they have arrived at the Russian secret facility.

I can understand why it got deleted: it takes the spotlight away from Barry, and it undermines Bruce's reason over Gotham City becoming one of the safest places in the world as an excuse to retire. Keeping that scene in the final cut would make Bruce a liar, particularly if there was no real thought into expanding the idea of him fixing his own timeline.

As I said before, I don't ever plan to watch the whole film, and from what I've already seen online, there was no way of saving The Flash anyway. Even putting the studio fiasco aside, the whole plot was nearly identical to the Reddit leaks I didn't like, and the tone and CGI was completely off-putting.

The first time we see Keaton attacking both Barrys in the kitchen and the way he used spaghetti to explain how the multiverse works is very goofy stuff.  The best scene I've watched so far was Batman single-handedly beating up all of the Russian guards, which is admittedly the greatest fight scene that Keaton's Batman ever filmed...and yet, it still gets blemished by the shot of Barry vomiting after he was saved by Flash's super-speed. Stupid, gross attempt at humour.

[eledoremassis02]

Batman has been retired for 25 years (whenever that is) 2:47

He's talking about catching up with Batman after 30 years. So then it seems he was Batman till around 1997/8ish wich is rougly when the film series ended.

He quits because he kills a bad guy infront of kid and that causes him to shut away his Batman side. Wich is exactly what I thought the Dark Knight Returns reference was with the alcohol. I do think this isnt 100% the definitive reason given whats explained in the film.

There is a deleted scene that does mention this story (young Barry reading it somewhere). But I think there is still an argument to be made that this is 100% the Burton Batman (and the theatrical edit offers and excuse for the Shumacher films to be cannon)

Edit: I rewatched the deleted scene and it's hinted that Keaton knows alot about time travel because he's looked into it to try and prevent himself from killing that guy.

This must be the deleted scene you're talking about:

https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1682851290542403584

For anybody who can't see the video, this how it goes: Batman, Barry and the Flash are taking a trip to Siberia in the Batwing. Flash tells the other Barry about the rumour of Batman killing the criminal in front of his kid and that might be the real reason why he quit. Flash also suspected Batman already had experience with time travel, and that would explain how he understood the concept so perfectly. The other Barry realises this and says Batman might be trying to fix the timeline, like he tried to fix his own. Flash urged Barry to ask Batman, but Barry refuses, just as Batman announces they have arrived at the Russian secret facility.

I can understand why it got deleted: it takes the spotlight away from Barry, and it undermines Bruce's reason over Gotham City becoming one of the safest places in the world as an excuse to retire. Keeping that scene in the final cut would make Bruce a liar, particularly if there was no real thought into expanding the idea of him fixing his own timeline.

As I said before, I don't ever plan to watch the whole film, and from what I've already seen online, there was no way of saving The Flash anyway. Even putting the studio fiasco aside, the whole plot was nearly identical to the Reddit leaks I didn't like, and the tone and CGI was completely off-putting.

The first time we see Keaton attacking both Barrys in the kitchen and the way he used spaghetti to explain how the multiverse works is very goofy stuff.  The best scene I've watched so far was Batman single-handedly beating up all of the Russian guards, which is admittedly the greatest fight scene that Keaton's Batman ever filmed...and yet, it still gets blemished by the shot of Barry vomiting after he was saved by Flash's super-speed. Stupid, gross attempt at humour.

I will say, the film mostly works and humor mostly works. I sat in theatres and was not only embarrassed for the film but had spiderman 3 levels of "this feels off" during the opening baby shower scene but the film has a lot of heart and reason to exist. Plus it makes ZSJL cannon.

Overall, it's probly the best DC film since Aquaman (if we're not counting ZSJL/

[The Laughing Fish]

Even if I ignore Zack once saying his Snyderverse trilogy is a separate universe from everything WB has been doing ever since Josstice L, it's hard to take the Flash's connection with his universe seriously when the characters behave out-of-character compared to what we saw before.

You only have to look at when Batfleck, Wonder Woman and Flash share the screen together and the cheap laugh involving the Lasso of Truth, because apparently, the studio thought the scene with Aquaman in Josstice L was oh so funny. Batfleck saying his ego is too big to say thanks...really? What about the time when he thanked Alfred for unleashing the Nightcrawler to fight the Parademons in ZSJL? If his ego is that big, he would never have told Alfred he didn't deserve him in BvS: Ultimate Edition or acknowledged how he failed Clark at the end of the film. There was some sexual tension between Batfleck and Diana in BvS and ZSJL, but from what I saw in that Flash scene, they came across as teenagers flirting with each other. It's shoddy stuff, and Affleck in that scene delivered the worst performance I've seen him play as Batman. The voice modulator didn't even sound like it was working when he spoke.

As for Flash and that virgin joke, it's groanworthy. Muschietti can try to make references to Snyderverse and Burtonverse all he wants, but it's all in vain when doesn't capture the spirit of the characters. Besides, this film was always intended to sideline the Snyderverse, whether it's completely erasing it or simply abandoning it, so the claims of making the film canon are even more moot.

[eledoremassis02]

I mean, hate it or leave it. Ben Affleck had a lot of involvement in his scenes and we know for a face he enjoyed working on it and finally "understood the character". I personally think he got it in BVS. But I don't see this as the slap in the face that theatrical JL was.

Sounds like they dropped the voice modulator and that's something I don't entirely hate cause I don't mind his natural Batman voice (could also be a metaphor for being more human).

[Slash Man]

I'm not opposed to his backstory, but it's very telling that they took everything out and the film has no indication that a subplot was missing. The dialogue in the Batwing was just that, telling and not showing. Plus, the moral dilemmas of vigilantism go out the window when you're one of humanity's last hopes against an apocalyptic event.

My mood on all this has soured. Keaton's Batman retired for 25 years? That doesn't wash with me, especially as someone who preferred a longer career for him. A 25 year retirement makes his sprightly return in the movie all the more absurd. Not really buying his reason for retiring in Andy's mind either. Is Batman, particularly this Batman, so mushy? We were told Batman's retirement was because he wasn't needed anymore. Gotham was safe. So which is it, Andy? I'd prefer the latter, but here he is twisting things in knots.

Our childhood Batman's lore is suddenly at the whim of a guy who popped up in recent years to direct The Flash? The B89 comic just didn't hit the mark in terms of providing a thematic or narrative continuation, and The Flash is no better really. It doesn't feel authentic because we know it's not from the original creative minds from back in the day. It's all well after the fact.

For better or worse, there's no stakes for this alternate-reality Batman. I might have been outraged had they killed THE Batman, but this Batman is simply a creation of time meddling.

[The Dark Knight]

For better or worse, there's no stakes for this alternate-reality Batman. I might have been outraged had they killed THE Batman, but this Batman is simply a creation of time meddling.

I agree. The same guy placed in a new doomed world that get erased makes everything that happens a free hit. That last scene with Nam-Ek isn't his true end in my book. It's just one of many deaths he suffered in that loop Barry #2 kept repeating. Whether or not I end up agreeing with the reason for Bruce retiring, I'm pretty sure he's back chilling in the Burtonverse Wayne Manor ordering pizzas and painting.