*SPOILER THREAD* - The Flash

[The Joker]

I understand why the Clooney ending was used as they want an upbeat ending, but don't want to give false hope for the future of this universe. Not an ideal answer, but an answer. The problem is that it doesn't work for this movie, which even in its final edit feels like it is trying to sell you on having Keaton and Calle stick around. Well, mission accomplished. I want them. The movie scores the sale, intends to make the sale all along, and then bails on it.

This right here. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Indeed. I'm quoting, because this needs to be emphasized recurrently. Keaton's Batman, and Calle's Supergirl sticking around was the original intended ending (from what I've gathered from reviews online, both of them were the MVP's with this film), thus the duo were conceived to be included in at least two different endings. Prior to Gunn's nonplus Clooney decision. Which pretty much concludes the previous proceedings and story narrative flippantly, than anything one would describe remotely suitable.

"But we didn't want to promise something that we're not going to follow up on!!!!"

HAHAHAHA!!!!

Yeah, like DCEU endings/stingers that are not followed up on is some unique and brand new practice! That's business as usual at this point, and would've had a inconsequential impact on something like Gunn's "Superman Legacy" if that's what he's worried about.

[eledoremassis02]

I'll be 100% honest. DC has been a mess since Batman V Superman and everyone would find a reason to complain no matter what the ending. There would have been an outcry over all 3 endings. I think it was easier to be like "We got clooney for this and thats it".

This is the same internet that hated Cavil until he was fired (and the fact he was in an ending ads credit to The Rock ruinined it). DC is sadly screwed no matter what they do. The internet hated Batgirl till it was canceled. I've been through very much the same that the entire X-men saga (since X3) has gone through. Fox didnt make things any better either but I enjoyed the ride while it lasted and am thankful we're getting a keaton-esque finally for the 2000s X-men.

In the end, I take it as a win cause we got Keaton back, Snyder cut is cannon, I got alot of films I like (MOS, BVS, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, ZSJL, Flash)

I am more than pleased. If the future movies suck, I have the ones I like to fall back on.

[Slash Man]

The rest of the film was a fun popcorn flick while the Keaton scenes were magic recaptured.

I wasn't a huge fan of the disheveled hermit status, but it was played way better than Luke Skywalker (who I think has a lot of parallels). It was depressing, but not overly so. Batman retired because the world didn't need him anymore, and it's not like he left Gotham as a dystopia overrun by crime.

Wayne Manor being a rundown mess was a bit sad to see, but it's more a statement on Alfred. I feel like his loss being thoroughly felt without outright commenting on his death was a beautiful touch.

I do like the spontaneity in which he returns to Batman. This older man has been out of practice for years, and then just sinks back into the role immediately and starts kicking ass. This is very much like Burton's Batman where there isn't an overly drawn out explanation for why Batman can do certain things; he just does. Joker launches an aerial threat? Batman has a plane. I love the directness; Nolan would probably bring the film to a halt to explain the backstory of why Batman has a plane and tease its forthcoming. But I digress.

I was initially dreading that they'd fall into cliche and kill off the elder hero. While that technically happened, I'm not too upset by the execution. They gave him a heroic death(s) where he didn't stop fighting until the very end. Most importantly, this isn't THE Batman from that universe proper. Merely a character that shares the same history that was placed into this diverging timeline.

Speaking of, his history is bit confusing at times. We have plenty of references to the first movie (obviously), but not too many to Returns. Though the suits are evidence that it's included. No Forever and Batman & Robin, though. Those films reference Metropolis and Superman, which is made explicitly clear doesn't exist in this Batman's world.

This also excludes the Batman '89 comic, which DC confirms takes place in the same continuity as Superman '78. Normally one wouldn't include the unmade Nic Cage Superman, but the events of that film have been confirmed to exist, which would put it in Burton/Schumacher's universe.

I admittedly aren't too knowledgeable about the Arrowverse take on the multiverse offhand, however I believe their 89 universe had a Batman who was still active at the time this film would have taken place, so that's seemingly discounted as well.

Has anyone who's read the latest DC crisis with Keaton in it been able to fit that in with any recent projects?

Anyways, the Keaton parts were great. There wasn't much arc, nor did there need to be as a supporting character. I kind of knew his part wasn't going to be as big as the trailers made it out to be, but I still enjoyed it. Seeing way more of Wayne Manor play a role in the film was a treat.

The action scenes were seemingly improved from the trailers. I miss the slight stiffness and editing style of the original, but those are nitpicks/nostalgia talking. As messed up as it is, it was great when Flash got shot in the leg and Batman had to take charge of the rescue mission. He honestly works well in a team setting onscreen.

[Silver Nemesis]

Speaking of, his history is bit confusing at times. We have plenty of references to the first movie (obviously), but not too many to Returns. Though the suits are evidence that it's included. No Forever and Batman & Robin, though. Those films reference Metropolis and Superman, which is made explicitly clear doesn't exist in this Batman's world.

That's a good point. Keaton's ignorance of Superman's existence is another clue that the Burton and Schumacher Batmen are two different characters.

This also excludes the Batman '89 comic, which DC confirms takes place in the same continuity as Superman '78. Normally one wouldn't include the unmade Nic Cage Superman, but the events of that film have been confirmed to exist, which would put it in Burton/Schumacher's universe.

I admittedly aren't too knowledgeable about the Arrowverse take on the multiverse offhand, however I believe their 89 universe had a Batman who was still active at the time this film would have taken place, so that's seemingly discounted as well.

I've been browsing the DC Wiki to see how its editors are categorising the different timelines, and the results are interesting. Presently they still have a page for the Burtonverse Batman that treats the entire Burton-Schumacher series as existing in one universe.  This page also documents the events of the Batman '89 comic while acknowledging they ignore the Schumacher movies.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Burtonverse)

This page badly needs tidying up. It's debateable whether the Burton and Schumacher Batmen should be split into two different articles, but the Earth 789 Batman should definitely have a separate page. It makes no sense for his history to be documented in the same article as the Schumacher Batman when their stories directly contradict one another.

The DC Wiki doesn't have a separate page for the Earth 789 Batman at the moment, but there is a separate page for the Earth 789 universe as a whole. The Batman references all link back to the Burtonverse page.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Earth_789

There's a separate page for the DCEU Flashpoint Batman played by Keaton. But in the character history section, it links to the Burtonverse Batman page.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(DC_Extended_Universe:_Flashpoint)

According to the DCEU Flashpoint page, Batman '89, Batman Returns and The Flash are part of that reality's canon. It also lists the Batman '89 comic as being part of that canon, even though there's no evidence to support this in The Flash. If the comic was canonical, wouldn't there have been a reference to the Drake Winston Robin? Wouldn't the batsuit from the comic have been included in the vault with the other costumes? To my mind, the Batman '89 comic is only canonical in the Earth 789 universe.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/DC_Extended_Universe:_Flashpoint

There's also a separate page for the Arrowverse Earth-89 Batman from Crisis on Infinite Earths (2019). Again, the character history section links to the Burtonverse page. The Arrowverse Earth-89 timeline only seems to acknowledge Batman '89 and Crisis on Infinite Earths. In this universe the Joker somehow returned from the dead and was captured by Batman in 2019.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Arrowverse:_Earth-89)

At the moment there also doesn't seem to be a page for the Bruce Wayne Clooney played in the final scene of The Flash. Obviously it was meant to be the Schumacherverse Bruce, but I'm guessing the DC Wiki editors will eventually create a separate page for him. I don't know what the rebooted post-Flashpoint DCEU timeline is called, but thanks to that cameo Clooney is now the only Batman existing in that reality.

Since they're rebooting the whole thing anyway, I wish they'd just left in the original ending and kept Keaton's two scenes in Aquaman II. I've no interest in seeing Aquaman II, but I would've paid to see it if Keaton's scenes had been preserved.

[The Dark Knight]

The B89 comic followed the general template of what a third Burton film could've included, but there's no indication at all from my point of view that The Flash adheres to any of it. And that's good, because it was underwhelming.

The Christopher Reeve Easter eggs rule it out completely because Flash Keaton rightly has no idea who Superman is. The immediate events after BR (the villains he fought, etc) remain up to our own imaginations in my book.

But I'm accepting the retirement phase and his transformation into The Big LebowKeat. Come to think of it I wouldn't call him depressed in the way Bale was. But the core trait they share is that Batman gives them purpose and drive. Without Batman, I guess Keaton still seems happy enough though. He's listening to some pretty funky music and painting. But he lives sloppily, and that too makes sense for a silver spoon boy who never had to concern himself with domestic duties.

[eledoremassis02]

Watched my second screening and noticed that the cowl Young Barry seems to paint, looks like an 89 cowl but when he wears it, its clearly a returns one. When he rips the neck off, its also ripped in a similar pattern to when Keaton rips it in Returns. Young Barry also gets his face scratched like Keaton does in Returns.

[Slash Man]

The B89 comic followed the general template of what a third Burton film could've included, but there's no indication at all from my point of view that The Flash adheres to any of it. And that's good, because it was underwhelming.

I'm fine with it for that reason, and because they can literally make any changes in this alternate timeline. Who knows that effect all the DCEU characters had on Burton's world?

But I'm accepting the retirement phase and his transformation into The Big LebowKeat. Come to think of it I wouldn't call him depressed in the way Bale was. But the core trait they share is that Batman gives them purpose and drive. Without Batman, I guess Keaton still seems happy enough though. He's listening to some pretty funky music and painting. But he lives sloppily, and that too makes sense for a silver spoon boy who never had to concern himself with domestic duties.

True, I do prefer it to Bale's sad state at the start of DKR. Though those are two equally realistic responses to losing your motivation. There's also the meta aspect to a real life time jump versus an in-universe time jump.

If you want to split hairs, Bruce has shown in the first film that he has more than enough money for staff to upkeep the premises - Alfred couldn't have been the one in charge of all the landscaping. Though he definitely was the cook, and it was nice to see Bruce now take pride in preparing a home-cooked meal by himself.

[The Joker]

According to the DCEU Flashpoint page, Batman '89, Batman Returns and The Flash are part of that reality's canon. It also lists the Batman '89 comic as being part of that canon, even though there's no evidence to support this in The Flash. If the comic was canonical, wouldn't there have been a reference to the Drake Winston Robin? Wouldn't the batsuit from the comic have been included in the vault with the other costumes? To my mind, the Batman '89 comic is only canonical in the Earth 789 universe.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/DC_Extended_Universe:_Flashpoint

I believe, and as you've stated before in the past, Hamm's Earth 789 stuff is no more canonical to Keaton's Batman film appearances, than that of the short-lived 1989-1991 Batman newspaper strip. These being just examples of off shoots that stem from the prime Burtonverse events.

There's also a separate page for the Arrowverse Earth-89 Batman from Crisis on Infinite Earths (2019). Again, the character history section links to the Burtonverse page. The Arrowverse Earth-89 timeline only seems to acknowledge Batman '89 and Crisis on Infinite Earths. In this universe the Joker somehow returned from the dead and was captured by Batman in 2019.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Arrowverse:_Earth-89)

At the moment there also doesn't seem to be a page for the Bruce Wayne Clooney played in the final scene of The Flash. Obviously it was meant to be the Schumacherverse Bruce, but I'm guessing the DC Wiki editors will eventually create a separate page for him. I don't know what the rebooted post-Flashpoint DCEU timeline is called, but thanks to that cameo Clooney is now the only Batman existing in that reality.

I guess someone could try and head cannon all this into one singular timeline, but it would get very convoluted, pretty quickly. Rather than attempt to DC "Linearverse" all this, I'm perfectly OK with variant Earths/Timelines that off shoot from the prime Burtonverse. It's a more clean approach, and shouldn't demean or belittle the variants of the central Burtonverse continuity, but recognizing that, hey, these Burtonverse continuities can be independent from one another.

Since they're rebooting the whole thing anyway, I wish they'd just left in the original ending and kept Keaton's two scenes in Aquaman II. I've no interest in seeing Aquaman II, but I would've paid to see it if Keaton's scenes had been preserved.

Wholeheartedly agree.

[The Dark Knight]

True, I do prefer it to Bale's sad state at the start of DKR. Though those are two equally realistic responses to losing your motivation. There's also the meta aspect to a real life time jump versus an in-universe time jump.

Rises Bale had the weight of Rachel's death on his mind which made his existence more miserable. Gough died, and we don't know if anything else major happened to hurt Bruce's soul. But if it was just Alfred that at least would've been a natural passing (I'm assuming it was) and one he knew was coming eventually. Both scenarios work for their respective movies. When I think about Rises in general my appreciation of its character work and themes is there - I think it's a fine movie that blasts most CBMs out of the water.

If you want to split hairs, Bruce has shown in the first film that he has more than enough money for staff to upkeep the premises - Alfred couldn't have been the one in charge of all the landscaping. Thought he definitely was the cook, and it was nice to see Bruce now take pride in preparing a home-cooked meal by himself.

The fog around the Manor was an excellent visual choice, and got across the idea this place is different to any other place in the city. Fog is obviously a real thing but IMO it's shrouded around this one building whereas it's probably normal conditions everywhere else. That lends the supernatural, haunted house element.

[thecolorsblend]

Off topic to anything else we were discussing.

But while it was great seeing Keaton come back and fly the Batwing, I am a tiny bit disappointed that he never drove around in the Batmobile.

It's not a big deal. But considering how that car is such an iconic part of the Burton movies, it would've been nice to watch Keaton rev it up one more time.