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How do you assess the overall performance (i.e. stealth, solidity) of the '92 batsuit? In particular, what are its main strenghts and flaws?

A little poll to see if this is actually the general feeling about Batman Returns.

Do you think that in "Returns" Batman's persona is challenged more seriously by his antagonists compared to the first movie?

I reckon it's reasonable to suggest ever since Batman struggled with the large Joker goon at the cathedral in B89, he learned how to think fast and one-up the villains on a more regular basis, By the time we see him in BR, he using these ingenious tactics to eliminate threats that more strange and dangerous than your regular mugging.

I totally agree on this: Batman's ability to improvise and adapt his fighting skills to weird and exhotic threats clearly was evident during his confrontations with the Circus Gang. Not only he singlehandedly dispatched them despite their numbers, but also turned their own attacks against them on many occasions. Even his multiple strike with the batrang came very close to actually neutralize all his opponents, and was eventually thwarted by the only occurrence he didn't have the time to consider, namely the trained poodle. Interestingly, the chain of events that followed the loss of the batrang later brought about Batman's (almost simultaneous) "confrontation" with the three main female foes: indeed, the following night we had the Knifethrower Dame dismantling the protections of batmobile, the Poodle Lady overseeing its sabotaging and Catwoman ambushing him while he attempted to save the Ice Princess. Speaking of challenges, I think that although the three conducted their attacks separately and had different goals, the combined effect of their actions had definitely more dangerous ramifications if seen as a whole strategy: for example, Catwoman's intervention not only slowed down and weakened Batman, but also bought time for the other traps to be set.

I think it's both psychological and physical. Catwoman equaled Batman in combat - if not bettered him, simply because of her agility, and like every male counterpart she meets, she knew how to trick him and degrade him. But Selina and Bruce did share a romantic chemistry together, and when you put that together with Catwoman's dominance over Batman for the majority of the time, it makes their potential romance coming to a premature end even more tragic.

Absolutely - one of the most interesting features of Catwoman is that she's more than a match for Batman when it comes to physically fight him. That somehow goes beyond the mere fact that, just like him, she's a creature of the night (and thus unaffected by the intimidating factor of his costumed persona) - Catwoman actually seemed even more at ease with the ways of her own vigilantism than him. Her self confidence probably stemmed from the early successes she had (the mugger, the destruction of Shreck's store - as you correctly wrote, she had the ability to trick and degrade her male counterparts) and of course her superior agility was a plus. Possibly, the intense romantic chemistry they had as Selina and Bruce had a sort of twisted dark side when they wore their costumes. If you compare Bruce's first date with Selina with the final part of their first fight as Batman and Catwoman, it's possible to notice some details that seemingly give the idea of two conflicting instincts struggling to cohesist, but that are ultimately destined to create more trauma and frustration. Catwoman caressed Batman's face with her clawed hand, a gesture that might have been a sign of affection in other circumstances but became dangerously ambiguous and dangerous since they had been fighting each other until moments before. Selina passionately kissed Bruce by the fireplace, but then her hand touched the spot where she had punctured him, renewed his pain and hampered their "normal" romance. Even more, Catwoman apparently became (and sounded) sexually aroused while stroking Batman's abs protections, but it remained unclear whether her attraction toward him was genuine or she was just trying to deceive him by objectifying his body armor. Catwoman's equivocal worshipping of Batman's body got reflected by Bruce's vagueness in describing his romantic past to Selina, to the point she abruptly kissed him to get rid of the stress caused by the prolonging of his clumsy explanations. Given all due differences, Catwoman "disentangled" the sexually tense situation on the ledge by puncturing Batman's flank - although more erotically charged in tone, her attack bore some similarities with the way they brusquely parted ("I can't do that" - "Neither can I") as they reckoned their inability to know each other any deeper. I guess these details further corroborate your idea that their relationship could have had great potential, but, together with the theme of "wearing masks" and their respective costumes working as bordelines, it all rapidly became mentally traumatizing for Selina and, due to Catwoman's physical and sexual dominance, increasingly painful for Batman.

This is a very interesting topic: actually in BR Batman gets challenged by his foes more often that in the previous movie, thus giving him the chance to show his wits when facing difficult / dangerous situations and eventually overcoming them most of the times.
I'd say his sabotaging the Penguin's press conference is the most effective and it somehow "balances" the Penguin's attempt to frame him for the murder of the Ice Princess. Also, him burning the red devil clown with the batmobile booster is deadly efficient and is a good second for me.

I personally believe the only villain Batman was not able to outwit in BR was Catwoman, who basically dominated him in every encounter. Sure, he fought back and managed to at least contain her in the two main fights, but overall she proved to be an incredibly insidious enemy for him. During the first battle on the rooftop she severely beat him (I guess that was the only time we actually saw Batman retreating), and later deceived him by pretending a sudden erotic attraction toward him. Their second fight also followed a similar path, with Batman ultimately resorting to sheer violence to stop her - the fact that she didn't manage to pierce the batsuit as deeply as she had done the night before was probably due to his upgraded armor, but also to the fact that she hit him where the suit was thicker. On both occasions however, she seemed more inclined to challenge him sexually in order to undermine his vigilantism, which possibily made the audience wonder if at that point their confrontation was more psychological than physical. This is also in keeping with her idea to degrade Batman by smearing his image before destroying him, which can be seen as her attempt to outsmart him - of course Batman eventually turned the hacking of the batmobile against the Penguin, but it's worth noticing that the sabotage was Catwoman's idea in the first place, while the clown gang merely execute it.

Let me know what you think!

My only guess why anybody could criticise that scene is because Batman was easily caught off-guard by somebody who was a direct threat to him. But my response to that is it's one thing for him to fight petty crooks and freaks on a routine basis, it's another thing to be taken by surprise and be confronted by another vigilante who also becomes a creature of the night. Particularly against somebody who is of the opposite sex. I guess you can rationalise it as Batman getting a taste of his own medicine. He had adopted the image of an animal and become this mysterious being to intimidate his targets and now it's his turn to become the target.

Besides, judging how Catwoman failed to puncture the Batsuit for a second time during the mistletoe scene, I think it's safe to say Batman learned his lesson and never underestimated her again.

That's a sensible and sound explanation: the sneak attacks she performed coupled with her highly erotic ways were something Batman had never faced before in Burton's universe. Also, you mention the fact that in the second movie Batman somehow became the target - I could not agree more on that. Compared to the more "regular" goons of the previous film, this time Bamtan faces criminals who seem to have more traits in common with him. The Circus Gang heavily plays on theatrics and intimidation tactics, plus they seem much more organized. The Poodle Lady manges to steal the batrang, while the "unit" with the Knifethrower Lady in charge is able to dismantle and "rewire" the batmobile. Catwoman repeatedly beats Batman at his own game (she ambushes him twice), is immune to his intimidating appearence, ridicules his gallantry ("How could you? I'm a woman!" ruse) and openly challenges the very nature of his vigilantism by linking it to his sexuality ("There you are..." allusion). In my opinion, the very core of Gotham's criminal world changed between the two movies, possibily because of Batman's very presence: we no longer see the ruthless but still "human-looking" underworld, but a variety of "creatures" (some cartoonish, other scary) that play by different rules. This might explain why - but it's only my two cent opinion - Batman looks weaker and worn out when confronting them: he can no longer count on the advantages he had when he was something totally new and unprecedented, instead he's alone fighting a moltitude of enemies that imitate his own tactics while working synergically against him. Most of the times he still manages to defeat them, but it all comes at a higher price that eventually drains him of his energies and makes him fail (as symbolized by Catwoman straddling him and proceeding to ridicule / punish him for the death of the Ice Princess).

(Ledge seduction) Even seeing it countless times like I have, the tension in this scene is palpable. [...] I generally rate Batman a lot higher on the masculinity scale than most real men so I prefer to assume it was just an involuntary reaction to the pain and being attacked, but it's not out of the realm of possibility to think he also reacts out of embarrassment over being taken advantage of by a mere woman' superior guile so he has to exhibit his supposed superior physicality on her, as is the real world case a lot of the time.

I totally agree, the scene reaches high levels of eroticism and it's basically my favourite among the ones portraying their relationship. My feeling is that Catwoman's ultimate goal was to perform an objectification of the batsuit in order to give Batman's costume a sexual meaning, thus corrupting and diminishing his power. Just like The Laughing Fish noted, Batman was not used to fight a female vigilante with roughly equal skills and capabilities who was also totally immune to his intimidating looks and theatrics. Therefore, when she took the initiative and started caressing his rubber suit in a sensual way, Batman had no idea how to react because the means he relied upon for both protection and aggression were not working with her. In my opinion, the tension created by this sequence stems from the precarious equilibrium between rubber fetish (which they seemingly both enjoy and it's also supported by the fact that the batsuit reproduces and highlights Batman's male features like the chest plates and the abs protections) and the physical threat represented by Catwoman's talons. Given the circumstances and the need to play their respective costumed identities, that was probably the only way to foreplay for them - at the same time, following that path also meant entering an extremely dangerous situation, especially for Batman. Also, even if Catwoman's purpose was to eventually injure Batman, that does not lessen the sexual ramifications implied by her seduction: she probably wanted to deceive him from the start, but in order to do that she had to win his trust first and create an erotic framework for him (i.e. seemingly worshipping his body through the batsuit), thus inevitably establishing a physical attraction between them.

I personally believe Batman's fierce reaction to the stabbing was mainly provoked by the acute pain her claws had inflicted him, but it's totally correct to assume that he was also aggravated by the fact that she had deceived him. I'd say that, right before being punctured, Batman was convinced she would have "gratified" him sexually for having saved her, so his backhanding her off the building also incorporated a strong element of frustration to it. Later on, when he recovered in the batcave, we see Batman angrily throwing away one of his gauntlets: it's highly plausible that he was still furious (and possibly also sexually frustrated) by the outcome of his encounter with Catwoman.

As for your friends, do they not accept that Batman was deceived and injured, or do they not accept that he was deceived and injured by, again, a mere woman, one who had just been injured and saved by Batman?

Well, most of them had problems accepting that he had repeatedly been beaten by Catwoman during the previous fight (which I personally don't see as an issue) and that the punishment culminated in him being deceived / ridiculed by a woman. The fact that he had saved her form falling certainly added a note of cruelty to the treatment he received, but again he should have known by then that she was dangerously unpredictable, so he contributed much to his own fate when he didn't take proper measures to protect himself. However, as I wrote, all these logic conclusions became really irrelevant when the "sex" element was introduced in their confrontation - for which I'm grateful to Tim Burton!

Overall, a great scene that never ceases to amaze me!

1) "There you are" sequence - it perfectly shows how insidious Catwoman's seductive art can be. In my opinion, everything about this scene is greatly choreographed and acted: Catwoman confidently taking the initiative, Batman's confusion and fear / excitation and the overall sense of forbidden radiating from their interaction. As a sidenote, for some reason this scene has always polarized my friends, as some of them don't seem to accept how Batman got deceived and injured while others considered it an intriguing take on Catwoman's tactics and psychology. We might consult the community on that ;-)

2) The first fight on the rooftop with Batman. It's fast-paced and inventive (Catwoman manages to use all her weapons and skills against him in less than 2 minutes), showing an overpowered Batman for the first time since his confrontation with the Joker's goon in the clocktower. The two sequences actually have some elements in common, but in this case there's no real resolution since the circumstances eventually only lead to an apparent truce on the ledge.

3) Catwoman meeting the Penguin. Apart form the heavy sexual innuendo surfacing almost relentlessly, the two of them plotting shows that its' her idea of framing Batman that eventually prevails. Catwoman's line "To destroy Batman we must first turn him into what he hates the most, namely us" underscores her manipulative ways and deceptions, together with a surprising self-awareness of being Batman's nemesis.

4) The situation under the mistletoe. The other sexually dangerous moment of the movie also has Catwoman's best comebacks, together with a rapid worsening of the circumstances that contrasts with the apparent pause of the action.

5) The mugger scene, because it's a great introduction for Catwoman: the audience gets a glimpse of her unpredictable nature and ambiguous morality.

... inspired by the previous post :-)

To me, the part when she stabbed Batman's flank is possibly her most effective and insidious assault.

Apart from damaging the batsuit and injuring Batman, Catwoman's attack was well planned and executed, since it involved deception, seduction and improvisation - also, it showed she could detect the weaknesses in his armor (not many criminals had previously realized that Batman's costume was not entirely bulletproof).