As much as I love BB and TDK (they embody aspects not covered by the Burton films) I think I like BB more because of its comic book feel.
There's way too much deconstructionist bullsh*t in movies and comics today, and it's destroying some great properties.
My point is, I have a few friends who completely trash Batman 89 in light of Nolan's films, but I point out often and passionately that 89 and Returns both featured a comic book fantasy feel that is integral to the mythos of The Batman.
I want that back after the super-realism of TDK. I want more atmosphere, shadow, and a Gothic feel. Crumbling buildings and ruined streets. The Narrows was a great start, but we need more of it.
Gotham may have started out as New York, but it long ago became rooted in the Gothic aesthetic.
Anyone else want this for Batman 3?
I don't want Nolan to destroy any sense of verisimilitude by going for a completely different tone in a sequel. Instead, I would hope that whoever makes the next Batman franchise aims for a more comic-book feel.
Damn straight.
I don't want Batman 3 to become Batman 89 or anything, I just think it would be nice to get some of the comic book atmosphere and tone that BB had.
And I would definitely like the next iteration of films to blend the realistic with the Gothic. Though I certainly don't want anything too out there, like supernatural villains or super powered characters. (Though seeing the Man-Bat would be pretty damn awesome)
My personal view is that although I like the movies made so far - the movie that I feel is a definitive sum-up of Batman still hasn't been made.
Ral, I gotta agree with you there.
For years, I was upset that even Batman 89--a watershed moment in my life--fell short in some key ways. Specifically, too great a focus on the Joker, and a Bruce Wayne/Batman who wasn't physically a match for the comic book character.
Batman Begins and The Dark Knight have corrected those two problems, yet brought new ones. The focus on realism is welcome, but it's pushed out the Gothic atmosphere that is integral to the character and his world.
I think the definitive on-screen version of The Batman remains Batman: The Animated series. If that could be adapted to live-action (ironically enough, it was inspired by Batman 89/Returns) then I think we'd have the definitive Batman on film.
Maybe they'll let Bruce Timm and Paul Dini have a shot at live action after Nolan is done.
Exactly Bat-Wing. Of all the various Batman films thus far, The Mask of the Phantasm is in my opinion the closest to being the definitive cinematic version of the character. I would love for someone to do a live-action Batman film that pays homage to the style of TMOFP and the animated series in general.
My thoughts exactly...Mask of the Phantasm is amazing!
I think the comic book feel will be felt a bit more when Wayne Manor and the Batcave return for Batman 3. For what Nolan is going for, I wouldn't want a drastic change. I'd rather him just return Batman to the Narrows - which is the result of the City's recession, building low cost dwellings that fell into disrepair. Plus, those people increase the crime rate due to their poverty. The rest of the City is gleaming and decent, and the Narrows area is bypassed, just like most real Western world cities.
If I've got a criticism about BTAS, it's how effective the GCPD seems to be. In BY1, Frank Miller created a city that had no hope of ever dealing with their problems. Burton tracked that same thought process (interesting too because there's no way BY1 could've been an influence on B89) and then Nolan did likewise later on. Gotham City in B89, BR, BB and TDK is a city that desperately needs Batman (whether the citizens realize it or not).
In BTAS, the GCPD may have some problems but you get the impression that they're largely effective at dealing with crime, the city's infrastructure isn't entirely (or even partially) corrupt, etc. Strictly speaking, I've gotten the idea that Gordon and his cops were capable of at least dealing with the mob. That Gotham City isn't crying out for someone to work outside the law to deal with the city's problems.
Whatever mass audience appeal BTAS has, it's ultimately still a kid's show so maybe I should go easy on Timm and Dini on this front but it's really one of very few things that keep BTAS from being definitive in my book.
As for Nolan remaking Gotham more in line with the comics, I think the dye is cast on this one. He's established a sorta real life Gotham City now. Reinventing the city for the third movie would be a mistake. I think the smarter play would be to finish off the trilogy as it is right now with the same basic aesthetics and then introduce a sort of anthology franchise which isn't necessarily associated with Nolan's world that more closely replicates the comics.
Just my two pennies.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 04:31
As for Nolan remaking Gotham more in line with the comics, I think the dye is cast on this one. He's established a sorta real life Gotham City now. Reinventing the city for the third movie would be a mistake. I think the smarter play would be to finish off the trilogy as it is right now with the same basic aesthetics and then introduce a sort of anthology franchise which isn't necessarily associated with Nolan's world that more closely replicates the comics.
Precisely.
Even if Nolan doesn't make another film, I think the next Batman film will still be in his style. I don't think WB would risk fixing something that isn't broken. They made that mistake once and don't want to go down that path again.
I do think that one day we will get a whole new take on Batman and I suspect that it will be much more fantastical than Burton's vision.
Perhaps something like this:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wd0r_arkham-asylum-directed-by-miguel-me_creation
I respect your opinion, Bat-wing, but for me, Nolan's Bat world already have some comic book feel... not like Burton's Batman, but it own feel IMO.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 04:31
Whatever mass audience appeal BTAS has, it's ultimately still a kid's show so maybe I should go easy on Timm and Dini on this front but it's really one of very few things that keep BTAS from being definitive in my book.
I think you nailed the problem some people have with this show when some others called it "the definitive screen Batman". As good as it is, it's obvious that a ton of compromises were made to make it safer for children. No matter how good, it still feels like adults playing costume party at night and not like a crime-infested world. Gotham is more like an art-deco funhouse.
----
I agree
Bat-Wing, I'd love to see a more Gargoyle-like Gothic Batman on film again.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 04:31
As for Nolan remaking Gotham more in line with the comics, I think the dye is cast on this one. He's established a sorta real life Gotham City now. Reinventing the city for the third movie would be a mistake. I think the smarter play would be to finish off the trilogy as it is right now with the same basic aesthetics and then introduce a sort of anthology franchise which isn't necessarily associated with Nolan's world that more closely replicates the comics.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 04:34
Precisely.
Yo TDK, I'm going to have to revisit this.
To say "Nolan should reimagine his Gotham City to be more in line with the comics" blah blah blah is kinda setting up a false dichotomy. Full disclosure, Nolan's isn't "my Batman". That title is held by the Burton Batman and the Kane/Finger/earlyearlyearly Detective Comics Batman. Those Gothams are cities full of long, deep shadows, scary architecture, the works.
However. That ain't the only way to skin the cat. The simple fact of the matter is that a "real world" Gotham City a la Christopher Nolan is readily apparent in many, many,
many comics. There's no shortage of precedent for Nolan to go the route he did. In my opinion, that is without a doubt the most bland and visually boring possible way to conceptualize Gotham City... but you simply cannot argue that Nolan had no comics from which to draw his inspiration.
Basically I'm now saying that Nolan's Gotham is no more and no less true to "the comics version" than Burton's (even though my preferences are obvious). So it would be an even bigger mistake for Nolan to redesign Gotham City for the third movie than what I initially said.
Anyway. Just wanted to rephrase this a little bit.
Although I'll believe he's coming back for a third helping when it's announced.
Quote from: silenig on Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 20:40
I think you nailed the problem some people have with this show when some others called it "the definitive screen Batman". As good as it is, it's obvious that a ton of compromises were made to make it safer for children. No matter how good, it still feels like adults playing costume party at night and not like a crime-infested world. Gotham is more like an art-deco funhouse.
Yep. I understand why some of those things were made. You couldn't bring Selina's post-Miller origin into a kid's cartoon show. Using Burton's origin ties the cartoon perhaps a bit too closely to the movies. The Silver Age comics origin is straight up weak sauce. Basically Dini, Timm and Burnett had to reinvent her from the ground up.
I'm totally cool with things like that... but it
is a consideration when we have these discussions. I dig on the show, it's on my top five favorite versions of Batman and nobody needs me to tell them that the awesome simply drips from the voice cast. But the show has its fair share of weaknesses and such a G-rated Gotham City is a big disadvantage.
QuoteI agree Bat-Wing, I'd love to see a more Gargoyle-like Gothic Batman on film again.
Agreed. I'm not a director or anything but I think a borderline monochromatic shot of Batman crouched in the shadows, kneeling beside a gargoyle in the pouring rain atop an impossibly huge skyscraper is a pretty effin' iconic Batman visual at this point. Sad to think we may never see that in live action, unless we get that anthology franchise after BB3.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 20 Aug 2009, 05:33
Agreed. I'm not a director or anything but I think a borderline monochromatic shot of Batman crouched in the shadows, kneeling beside a gargoyle in the pouring rain atop an impossibly huge skyscraper is a pretty effin' iconic Batman visual at this point. Sad to think we may never see that in live action, unless we get that anthology franchise after BB3.
Well, I love the shot in Begins where Batman is on the side of a Narrows building, cape flapping in the wind while rain pours down. That was cool.
I hope the next Batman is a little more like BB than TDK, still in the same universe, but with a slight edge toward the fantastical. Speaking of Begins and Knight, what happened to the rest of the monorail after Ras' and the train crashed? Did they dismantle it? Did they fix it? Why don't we see it in Dark Knight? (I know, It's because it WASN"T REAL! ;D)
To me, the PERFECT Batman movie, would be the look and feel of Batman89 and Returns mixed with the action of Begins and TDK. Also with more Duck Mobiles as long as I'm dreaming.
Yeah, nolans sucked all the juice out of batman. I guess thats what most people wanted after all the "stupid batman movies of the 80s and 90s". People got their bed and now they can sleep in it. Nolan's movies aren't bad I guess. The nolan crew didn't believe in comic book so they made something they thought was more realistic.
I liked BB a lot when it came out, and I still enjoy it to this day. Sure, it has some things wrong with it, the fear-theme is a little to heavy at times, and they had some cheesy lines here and there, but overall, I enjoy it MUCH more then TDK, and one of those reasons, is how Nolan stripped away Batman from a lot of it's fantasy elements. I would agree that I want a Batman movie to feel like it's more "in tune" with it's fantasy elements, like the majority of the comics tend to be. I do, however, think that if Nolan does come back, that he should just stick to what he has, or at least, go back to the atmosphere from what was presented in Begins. Begins was a more "realistic/serious" take on the character, but it didn't go over the edge, to being a little to "real world". And that's one of the biggest complaints about TDK, in that, it feels a little to real and serious, that it feels silly to be seeing a man dressed as a Bat fighting against a psychotic clown. The atmosphere and tone of the characters, are just out of place for me.
I also have a lot of other complaints about TDK, but that is one of my biggest. ;)
Quote from: Travesty on Sun, 13 Dec 2009, 19:39
Sure, it has some things wrong with it, the fear-theme is a little to heavy at times, and they had some cheesy lines here and there
Tell me about it. Not to mention plot holes you could drive a truck through.
Quote from: Travesty on Sun, 13 Dec 2009, 19:39
I do, however, think that if Nolan does come back, that he should just stick to what he has, or at least, go back to the atmosphere from what was presented in Begins
Yes, that's the smart and obvious thing to do.
I have a hunger for a more "comic book" Batman. People must realise that does not equal Schumacher. Far from it. You don't have to go super-real to be gritty.
Like you, I realise it will have to be after Nolan is done. However, if a new director comes in and must continue the narrative Nolan established, well, I think it's a given we're going to get more of the same. More or less.
To me the best blend for a comic book feel would be a mix of Burton's Batman films and the 1992 animated series' tone. In fact, if you were to combine the best parts of Batman, Batman Returns and TMOFP, you'd have the ultimate comic book film.
I have a problem with the Nolan Batman becoming less of a superhero type and more of, I don't know, simply an action hero.