The series designs looked more realistic, a la X-Men. I think that's primarily why I am not too fond of it sometimes.
What "series" are you referring to?
The Animated Series, hense why I am in this section of the board.
Quote from: Darrell Kaiser on Wed, 3 Jun 2009, 01:05
The series designs looked more realistic, a la X-Men. I think that's primarily why I am not too fond of it sometimes.
I know what you mean. That's why I wish the whole show was animated in Japan like certain episodes where it looks a little more "graphic".
Are you talking about the character designs or settings, Darrell?
Mostly the characters, but you can't put realisitic characters in the environment of the show. They would need some tweaking, but keeping the same idea.
Well, despite the mentioned flaws, B:TAS is still my favorite cartoon, no matter what! I just couldn't resist saying that! 8)
It's not too bad of a series, but a few tweaks wouldn't have hurt. Some the character designs were kind of too simplistic, but I think that was because they were aiming for the look of the Kane-Finger comics of the 30?s and 40?s. X-Men was great at its closeness to its source material in both stories and design. I wish I could have seen that done for Batman.
Quote from: Darrell Kaiser on Wed, 3 Jun 2009, 01:34
It's not too bad of a series, but a few tweaks wouldn't have hurt. Some the character designs were kind of too simplistic, but I think that was because they were aiming for the look of the Kane-Finger comics of the 30?s and 40?s. X-Men was great at its closeness to its source material in both stories and design. I wish I could have seen that done for Batman.
Actually, if you look at some of Bruce Timm's artwork (I believe in
Batman Animated), the character designs look more detailed. It probably would've been best to see the characters look like that.
Still, most of the character designs were overall faithful to the comics (not just the Kane/Finger era, but also the 70's, 80's, & early 90's), which is more than fine by me (although some had tweaks, like Batman's suit, for example). :)
Simplicity works best in animation, especially on TV budgets. If you go back and look at the quality of animation in shows like X-Men and G.I. Joe, it's pretty shaky. The more graphic style used in Batman, in addition to fitting the Dark Deco backgrounds, made it possible for the show to have more fluid animation.
What do you mean "shaky?" Those 80's and 90's Marvel cartoons had some of the best animation I've ever seen!
Quote from: Darrell Kaiser on Thu, 4 Jun 2009, 19:13
What do you mean "shaky?" Those 80's and 90's Marvel cartoons had some of the best animation I've ever seen!
I have to completely disagree. You compare those to the Golden Age of the 30s and 40s, or even to what's available now, and the animation is very limited and the character designs are very rubbery and inconsistent. The "realistic" style that those shows used involves drawing all the lines for muscles, costumes, and shading over and over and over again; it's not hard to see that they couldn't get them to match every time.
There are quite a few episodes of TAS with fairly weak animation, depending on the studio, but on the whole, the graphic style made it much easier to maintain consistency.
Quote from: zDBZ on Thu, 4 Jun 2009, 22:07
There are quite a few episodes of TAS with fairly weak animation, depending on the studio, but on the whole, the graphic style made it much easier to maintain consistency.
Yes indeed.
Well, I'm not comparing them to Looney Tunes and Disney, which mostly involve animal characters. I like more richness and detail in my "action" cartoons. Have you even WATCHED X-Men? The first episode had an epic piece of animation of Wolverine crawling on the back of a Sentinel. I was absolutely stunned! I can't think of a moment of animation in Batman that left me speechless like that one, along with many other moments from not only X-Men, but from others. I don't get what you mean by "it's not hard to see that they couldn't get them to match every time." They always looks pretty smashing to me!
I agree Darrell - compare the 80's Transformers cartoons to recent ones, the 80's piss all over them :D
I think those piss all over the movies also, ral. Those animation companies REALLY knew what we wanted back then!
Quote from: Darrell Kaiser on Thu, 4 Jun 2009, 22:19
I think those piss all over the movies too, ral. And just about every other "action" cartoons.
actually, don't the robots piss on the humans in the movies?? ::)
Yep. So sad... :(
Quote from: Darrell Kaiser on Thu, 4 Jun 2009, 22:11
Well, I'm not comparing them to Looney Tunes and Disney, which mostly involve animal characters. I like more richness and detail in my "action" cartoons. Have you even WATCHED X-Men? The first episode had an epic piece of animation of Wolverine crawling on the back of a Sentinel. I was absolutely stunned! I can't think of a moment of animation in Batman that left me speechless like that one, along with many other moments from not only X-Men, but from others. I don't get what you mean by "it's not hard to see that they couldn't get them to match every time." They always looks pretty smashing to me!
I'm not as familiar with
X-Men as I am TAS, but I have seen it and the animation is very much in the mould of late 80s/early 90s action cartoons a la G.I. Joe; stiff characters and limited animation. I'm not denying that it could have had great animation, as many of those shows went for broke on opening titles and pilots to wow kids early on, but the animation in the episodes themselves was very dodgy. If you notice, later-day X-Men shows like
X-Men: Evolution and
Wolverine and the X-Men have gone for a more graphic sense of character design, like TAS. It's easier to draw over and over and it's easier to keep things the same from drawing to drawing. And Disney learned that on feature films that featured human characters;
Snow White and
Cinderella have more "realistic" humans and the animators and Walt never felt that the characters came alive, so when
Sleeping Beauty came around, the designs became much more graphic and the animation of the humans improved greatly.
Here's a real factor and this information comes from 2 animator friends of mine who were involved in Family Guy and some independent animated short film...
The new animation today is cheaper, easier and flash based. There's a lack of passion or courage to tackle the more difficult and unpredictable animation from the 80s and even the early 90s.
Darrel, you are definitely one of those who are noticing the down shift in quality animation. In fact, I will dare to say Tom and Jerry cartoons are far superior than Transformers Animated or Batman TAS, ONLY because they ditched 50% of the defining fundamentals of animation, one of which is EMOTION. When you look at old Tom and Jerry shows, you will notice that you dont need any dialogue to understand their emotion. From lips puckering to frowns and sadness, its all there.
Today, animated shows are based on much more simplistic and easily reproducible and minimal frames. Its cost effective.
I too wished that the animated BATMAN series were more... detailed. More.. raw and real. But, that would be too hard and time consuming for the network to work with. And let me tell you...as far as I was told, the network could care less for animated shows and would gladly replace them with more reality crap.
Thats why these new animations are getting less and less inspiring and very cheap.
Also, theyre totally on a rampage to figure out new technical ways to animated to make it even cheaper so that they have a winning shot to stay on air far longer than its competitors.
Is it really necessary? NOPE. But the networks have been making so much money off reality TV, they lost care for children's television and pretty much let the Cartoon Network handle the line up...which means you gotta have cable.
$$$ $$$ $$$
That's why I stopped myself from getting involved in animation.
Its all flash based now. Flash animation. Can you believe that? lol...
:P
I'm with you guys 100% on making the look of the show more detailed and less cartoony. That's one reason why as a kid I was never sold on the show because it looked too "Dick Sprang" to me when I wanted a more Jim Aparo look. Unfortunately Bruce Timm wanted the show to look like the early Superman cartoon.
I also wish that TAS was either made for HBO or made into animated shorts where they could be a little more flexible with the violence which was superbly done in MOTP. The Joker actually got to kill people!
Quote from: Darrell Kaiser on Fri, 5 Jun 2009, 03:37
Whatever! Just take you like and do you know what. I'm outta here!
I have not been trying to antagonise you. I've just been trying to explain why the show looks how it looks.
Sorry, dude. I got a little excited.
Given the fundamental differences between live action and animation, it should come as no surprise that the needs for each format differ. I like the BTAS style.
In fact, if I've got a criticism about BTAS, it's that the animated movements of the characters didn't always live up to the designs. Based upon that teaser poster artwork (the one around which the credits rolled at the end of each episode) that we'd see a lot more dynamic movement, gags, etc. In contrast, the actual show has a lot of people just standing around talking to each other. I thought we'd see "comic book style" kinetics, stunts and gags based upon that teaser but what we got was... different.
I love BTAS, it's on my Top Two Batman adaptations and I love the style (esp the WB redesign) but I felt like it somewhat missed the boat on going crazy with animation, movement, kinetics, etc.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 20 Jun 2009, 08:43
Given the fundamental differences between live action and animation, it should come as no surprise that the needs for each format differ. I like the BTAS style.
In fact, if I've got a criticism about BTAS, it's that the animated movements of the characters didn't always live up to the designs. Based upon that teaser poster artwork (the one around which the credits rolled at the end of each episode) that we'd see a lot more dynamic movement, gags, etc. In contrast, the actual show has a lot of people just standing around talking to each other. I thought we'd see "comic book style" kinetics, stunts and gags based upon that teaser but what we got was... different.
I love BTAS, it's on my Top Two Batman adaptations and I love the style (esp the WB redesign) but I felt like it somewhat missed the boat on going crazy with animation, movement, kinetics, etc.
Good post.
Nice to see you back here, colors. You've been missed.
You've been hibernating on us, tcb? :)
Good afternoon, everyone. Sorry I've been away for so long.
I won't let you down again.
No worries from me. It's great that you've returned. 8)
Welcome, and great post. I agree that this "minimalist" look gave TAS its unique style.
Still, some of the "episodes" in Gotham Knight (especially the last one) are maybe the best animated clips ever seen with a western "superhero". No wonder they were done by Japanese studios, stuff like Ninja Scroll and Vampire Hunter D is how I would like to see Batman done in animation.
Quote from: Darrell Kaiser on Wed, 3 Jun 2009, 01:05
The series designs looked more realistic, a la X-Men. I think that's primarily why I am not too fond of it sometimes.
Sorry to say but I've got to disagree Darrell.
B:TAS had a definite stylised look. It was obviously created with genuine care, and was not merely a marketing tool or a cheap spin-off unlike a lot of action-orientated cartoons. It's art-deco designs are iconic.
Although the X-Men animated series designs did often look like they were directly lifted from the comics at times, I don't think that style added much. Animation and comics are completely different artforms, and I don't think the sketchy, realistic style of the comics work well in animation.
Quote from: silenig on Sat, 20 Jun 2009, 18:12
Welcome, and great post. I agree that this "minimalist" look gave TAS its unique style.
Still, some of the "episodes" in Gotham Knight (especially the last one) are maybe the best animated clips ever seen with a western "superhero". No wonder they were done by Japanese studios, stuff like Ninja Scroll and Vampire Hunter D is how I would like to see Batman done in animation.
I agree with you my friend, I was so happy with Gotham Knight's animation I would love to see more stories done like that, its a shame they couldnt have done more with it.