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Let's see who Batman Movie Online members think is the best Burton villain - Nicholson's Joker or DeVito's Penguin.

I enjoyed Nicholson's performance a great deal, but it's got to be DeVito for me. He became the Penguin, the mannerisms, the lot. Burton and co. took a weak villain and turned him into a serious threat, with a great new backstory.

What about you?

Hey, where's Catwoman (or even Max Shreck) Dark Knight?  :)

Alright...alright...

I wanted to just focus on the two obvious villains, but I've changed it for you.

I'm sorry Dark Knight.  You didn't have to change the poll.  I didn't realise it was your intention to just focus on the Joker and Penguin.

In any case I think I'll give my vote to Nicholson's Joker.  I love Batman Returns but I wouldn't say that Burton's interpretation of The Penguin is my preferred version.  I'm probably one of the few people who actually likes the original comic version (which Burgess Meredith actually did a pretty good job of approximating in the TV series). 

What I will say about Burton's Penguin and Catwoman is that there is a lot of depth and sub-text to both these interpretations which makes Returns such a special film for me.

DeVito's Penguin is very frustrating for me, because there is a lot of it I like
(victorian suit, penguin body shape, flipper-hands), and a lot of it I don't (long ratty hair, green spittle and black bile, stupid grey jumpsuit), so I have to vote for Jack as the Joker.

I never really understood why people were so put off the black and green bile.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 13 Apr  2009, 14:57
I never really understood why people were so put off the black and green bile.

Penguins don't drool green spittle or spew black bile. they were trying to make him a literal bird man and that aspect doesn't work Maybe if he was raised by komodo dragons...

He has to be 100 percent Penguin does he?

The guy, or thing, is a freak.

I like it. It makes him more alien to us.

you like it. Fine. I DON"T like being called on the carpet every time I give my opinion! This is supposed to be an open forum, and yet I am constantly being jumped on every time I have something negative to say about you beloved Penguin! You have a different opinion, that is wonderful, that's great, but that is your OPINION. Don't go talking as though it is fact!

Now that my rant is done, I apologize for being intense, the opinion/ fact thing is something that has bugged me for a long time and regretfully you just got the brunt of it which isn't fair to you.

You have your opinion. I have mine. This is a forum, we debate things. Simple. Don't lose your cool.

I'm not talking about debate. I'm talking about people who will totally rip you to shreds because you don't agree with them. I'm talking about those posts where people say "You speak an undeniable truth."  It is an opinion. I'm tired of those "Facts" and the blanket statements like "You're not a true Batman fan if..." On the other hand, we don't have youtube like postings on here. The kind where the postee is probably some prepubescent who thinks swearing every other word and just being plain vulgar is making a point and being cool.

Bring on the debates!


Looking back on your posts on this thread, I realize you were just giving your opinion which means I blew it out of proportion, to which I apologize profusely.

True, I don't agree with you on the topic, but I didn't rip you to shreds. You'll find that this is what a forum is all about. People discuss things. It happens all the time. I can state my opinion against yours, and you have the right of reply. This is an open forum, as you say, after all. 

I didn't make make blanket 'truth' statements, either. My first reply to you I was merely wondering why people didn't like the bile. The second reply I posed a question, said the obvious that Penguin was a freak and posted my opinion that I liked the black and green bile.

You are talking about things that aren't happening here. Get back on topic, please.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 13 Apr  2009, 15:44
True, I don't agree with you on the topic, but I didn't rip you to shreds. You'll find that this is what a forum is all about. People discuss things. It happens all the time. I can state my opinion against yours, and you have the right of reply. This is an open forum, as you say, after all. 

I didn't make make blanket 'truth' statements, either. My first reply to you I was merely wondering why people didn't like the bile. The second reply I posed a question, said the obvious that Penguin was a freak and posted my opinion that I liked the black and green bile.

You are talking about things that aren't happening here. Get back on topic, please.

The blanket statements are rampant on this site, I wasn't referring to this particular post.

Joker for me.

I loved DeVito's Penguin to death but I always felt like he came off as the lesser of two evils, Shreck being the more. I just wish that it was Oswald who initially wanted to become mayor and not Shreck using him for his power plant. The Penguin seemed to do it because of the "...unlimited poontang".

It's gotta be the Penguin.  Anyone who doesn't think so isn't a true a Batman fan.  :D :D :D

KIDDING!!

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 13 Apr  2009, 15:54
It's gotta be the Penguin.  Anyone who doesn't think so isn't a true a Batman fan.  :D :D :D

KIDDING!!

Lucky you added that in. The locals are touchy around here.  ;D

Wow, really tough choice. Hmmm, I choose.... DeVito's Penguin. Like you, The Dark Knight, I love how Burton & co. made a boring villain become a deformed man rejected since birth.

It's a tough choice. Do i pick a villian from the burton films or the villian that is most burton-esque?  :-\  ;)

I can't really choose one, but if I had to say who I think did the best job, I have to pick Catwoman. Even though Jack was iconic as the Joker, and DeVito was grotesque and emotionally riveting as the Penguin, Pfeiffer just absolutely nailed her character 120% on every level.

Tough choice.

Got to admit, I'm somehow surprised Nicholson's Joker is winning the vote at this stage.

There are certain attricbutes that Nicholson's Joker has that are head above the rest, but one thing that most people I believe can say about him is that he is immensly memorable, not only as a Batman villian but as a screen villain on a whole.

No votes for the Tattooed Strongman? He appears in ALL games based on the movie  :P

Yeah, Nicholson's Joker has been voted as one of the 100 greatest movie villains of all time.

M

Quote from: silenig on Thu, 16 Apr  2009, 21:36
No votes for the Tattooed Strongman? He appears in ALL games based on the movie  :P

Yeah, Nicholson's Joker has been voted as one of the 100 greatest movie villains of all time.

My own preference would have been for the Poodle Lady.  The Tattooed Strongman was a pussy. ;)

as great as Jack was playing the Joker, Burton had almost zero input on his character as well as his design...Jack had final approval over the make up and costume....because of this I would say that although Batman 89 was a Burton film, it was pretty much designed by Anton Furst and controlled by Guber Peters.

Batman Returns is with out question a total Burton film...Catwoman, Max Shreck and The Penguin are what I would consider true "Burton" villains....and if I had to choose I would go with the Penguin ....pretty much all of Catwoman was designed by Ringwood and Mary Vought.....The Penguin's design was all Burton, taking reference from Lon Chany's character from the silent film London After Midnight...Stan Winston's FX team used Burton's designs to bring the Pegiun to life( the Penguins nose was inspired by the Crows make up from the movie "the Wiz")....so I would say the Penguin gets my vote

Quote from: Reevz666 on Fri, 17 Apr  2009, 00:35
as great as Jack was playing the Joker, Burton had almost zero input on his character as well as his design...Jack had final approval over the make up and costume....because of this I would say that although Batman 89 was a Burton film, it was pretty much designed by Anton Furst and controlled by Guber Peters.

Batman Returns is with out question a total Burton film...Catwoman, Max Shreck and The Penguin are what I would consider true "Burton" villains....and if I had to choose I would go with the Penguin ....pretty much all of Catwoman was designed by Ringwood and Mary Vought.....The Penguin's design was all Burton, taking reference from Lon Chany's character from the silent film London After Midnight...Stan Winston's FX team used Burton's designs to bring the Pegiun to life( the Penguins nose was inspired by the Crows make up from the movie "the Wiz")....so I would say the Penguin gets my vote

Exactly.

Bump.

Since watching Batman (1989) on the big screen, I've really enjoyed and appreciated Jack's Joker a lot more. The guy was fantastic. The Joker is my overall favourite Batman villain, and at the moment he is my favourite Burton Batman villain. Makes sense I think.

Yeah Jack wins hands down for me. Jack Nicholson did seem to have a lot of input into his character, which I think is great for a director to do and even better for the actor. Didn't Michael Gough say that Tim gives you the character and lets you play with it? Also Robert Whurl, and even Michael Keaton had input into their character, so this concept wasnt just exclusive to Jack Nicholson. However I'd say because of who Jack was and was friends with he had a lot of control. Yet I'd say he'd be respectful of Burton's ideas and vision.

I didnt think Peters or Guber had much to do with the characterisation. Obviously it was written by Sam Hamm and Warren Skarren - which rewrites happened during production. The persona was classic Nicholson through and through. But didnt the guy that done the make-up say that the only person he had to please was Nicholson and Burton? And Nicholson did have the final say, though I'd say Burton would approve everything. The idea was not to dilute Nicholson's face, so he's still regonisable (something Nolan bat-fans dont seem to understand when they comment 'you can tell its Nicholson, Ledger you didnt reconise him!' that was the point). Nicholson said he wanted the longer face. For his suit it seemed to be Bob Ringwood's say. To me the Joker suit is based on Ceasar Romero's Joker suit from the 60's series, only Nicholsons looks a million dollors. I love that clean cut look to the Joker in Batman 1989. However, Ringwould comented the trousers where supposed to be pin striped! But Nicholson suggested plaid, so thats what they went for and I have to admit that it works rather well.

I have to say though Nicholson added so much to that character and the Batman movie.

In order my favourit villians are:

The Joker,
Max Schrek,
Catwomen,
Penguin.

The Joker is the reason I love Batman so much and in particular Batman 1989. Greatest villian of all time!

Jack's Joker is the greatest villain of all time for me as well. Nicholson as well as Keaton were given certain comic books especially form the 30's and 40's and also The Killing Joke to help prepare for their. Don't forget Hamm wrote the screenplay and he's a genius in the comic book knowledge. Also Burton was very collaborative from the documentaries I've seen so they all worked together and fleshed out the characters.

People have a lot to say about "Burton's vision" etc., but although he's my favourite director when it comes down to it all, a particular villain, like the Joker must maintain its source origins and characteristics, especially since it was in the public for 50 years.

So yeah...Jack's Joker easily, although the others are memorable as well.

I really think Nicholson's Joker looks like the original Joker.

Nicholson was brilliant, but it's a pity he wasn't 15 years younger when he made Batman.  He really looked like the original comic book Joker during the early 70s when he was about 50 pounds lighter.

I don't think anyone could replicate Nicholson's Joker performance.

Ledger's Joker, on the other hand, has been. Seach youtube or wherever. Hell, try acting out that style of Joker yourself. It's more one dimensional and easier to play.

Nicholson is closer to the Joker of the comics.

A few notes off the top of my head:

Permawhite - check
Clown gadgets - check
Cultured tastes and style appreciation - check

Nicholson did not 'put on' a Joker voice, unlike Ledger. He naturally had a distinctive, authoritive and powerful voice.

He also has the better laugh and laughed more often - check out that laugh after he says "I'm glad you're dead" to Rotelli!

I think what made it seem a bit old are the countless "impersonators" you can see on youtube. Nothing wrong with guys trying to put their fan fiction on video, but I'd prefer they do something their own with the Joker instead of trying to do an impression of Ledger's performance.

As for Jack.. There's no one like Jack.

the joker. selina wasn't a villain, max could've taken out the penguin if he'd really wanted to, and the joker would've had no trouble with max so its the joker all the way.

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed, 30 Sep  2009, 11:37
the joker. selina wasn't a villain, max could've taken out the penguin if he'd really wanted to, and the joker would've had no trouble with max so its the joker all the way.

Sound analysis.  :)

With the gargoyle around his leg, the Joker was stuck in a moment he couldn't get out of. If for some insane reason he did hang on - watch out Gotham!

that scene always makes me cringe because i'm like "oh gah that would have to be horrible to know you're about to fall to your death and theres nothing you can do about it except try in vain to hold on."

i wonder if he prayed while he hung onto that last rung.

I don't think the Joker was the religious type...

he might've been when he realized he was about to go splat.

Great pics silenig!!

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 30 Sep  2009, 03:24
I don't think anyone could replicate Nicholson's Joker performance.

Ledger's Joker, on the other hand, has been. Seach youtube or wherever. Hell, try acting out that style of Joker yourself. It's more one dimensional and easier to play.

Nicholson is closer to the Joker of the comics.

A few notes off the top of my head:

Permawhite - check
Clown gadgets - check
Cultured tastes and style appreciation - check

Nicholson did not 'put on' a Joker voice, unlike Ledger. He naturally had a distinctive, authoritive and powerful voice.

He also has the better laugh and laughed more often - check out that laugh after he says "I'm glad you're dead" to Rotelli!

Agreed!!! I love the laugh you hear in the belfry right after he pulls Batman and Vicki over the edge!

For me the best Burton villian is Penguin because Burton took a chracter from the comics that was quite two dimensensal imo and made him three dimensensal while still retaining some of the comic book traits and appearance to an extent. In addition he made him a tragic villain which to any one calling foul play just look what Dini did to Mr Freeze then come back to me. His relationship with Batman was also quite fasnating as Paul Dini quoted in a interview, "One was scared by his parents death the other was scared by his parents" It creates almost quite a good opposite to Batman in many driffrent ways which I think some of the best Batman villians have always done, Joker for example reprenting choas wheras Batman reprents order. Credit also has to go to Devito who turned out an amazing performance and its a crying shame he was nomaninted a Razzi back in the day, some people don`t know good acting even when they are hit in the face with it but thats a topic for another day. Anyways that is why I think Penguin is the best Burton villian and is also one of my personal favourites from the Batman movie franchise as a whole.

Mr.J... Catwoman in 2  ;D

Quote from: Scarecrow756 on Wed,  7 Oct  2009, 08:59For me the best Burton villian is Penguin because Burton took a chracter from the comics that was quite two dimensensal imo and made him three dimensensal while still retaining some of the comic book traits and appearance to an extent. In addition he made him a tragic villain which to any one calling foul play just look what Dini did to Mr Freeze then come back to me. His relationship with Batman was also quite fasnating as Paul Dini quoted in a interview, "One was scared by his parents death the other was scared by his parents" It creates almost quite a good opposite to Batman in many driffrent ways which I think some of the best Batman villians have always done, Joker for example reprenting choas wheras Batman reprents order. Credit also has to go to Devito who turned out an amazing performance and its a crying shame he was nomaninted a Razzi back in the day, some people don`t know good acting even when they are hit in the face with it but thats a topic for another day. Anyways that is why I think Penguin is the best Burton villian and is also one of my personal favourites from the Batman movie franchise as a whole.

Precisely that.  I love Jack Nicholson as the Joker, for my money that rendition will never be topped (with all due respect to his competition) but I never felt for him.  He was a sadistic killer.  He didn't really go through a massive arc or anything.

But the Penguin?  Oh man.  I mean, yeah, he was a sick f**k but you can't help feeling for him a little bit.  If he'd been loved as a child, there's every reason to think things might've turned out differently for him.  He got what he had coming to him but that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't feel some compassion for the guy.

The Penguin was the better villain of the two.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 15 Oct  2009, 05:59
The Penguin was the better villain of the two.

I agree. The Penguin is the best Burton villain, but The Joker is my favourite.