So what did everyone think about Keaton's fate at the end of the movie? Obviously the whole multiverse situation means he could still be alive, and could still return in future films. But if this was his final appearance, how would you feel about it?
I thought it was a great way for him to go out – literally fighting to the death against a much more powerful adversary. Nolan teased Batman's demise in TDKR, but ultimately balked at the idea. I know some fans think Batman did die in that movie, and that Alfred was imagining Bruce's appearance at the end, but Baleman's fate is ambiguous at best.
In The Flash, Keaton's Batman is definitely dead. There's ambiguity surrounding his ongoing existence in the multiverse, but we definitely see him die during the final battle in that particular universe. And he goes out like a man.
Had his first death been final – the one where he crashes the Batwing into Zod's ship kamikaze-style and fails to make a dent – then I would have been angry. That would've been a terrible way for him to throw away his life.
But his second death, following a final one-on-one fight against Nam-Ek, was awesome. Keaton's Batman must've had balls of concrete to take on someone that powerful. Even Cavill's Superman struggled against Nam-Ek in Man of Steel, and yet Keaton was able to floor him, dodging his attacks and strategically tagging him with bombs until he wore him down. It doesn't get more badass than that.
This death also echoes two precedents from the comics. Firstly the death of the original Earth-Two Batman, who also came out of retirement in his sixties for one final battle before being killed by the superpowered criminal Bill Jensen. And secondly The Dark Knight Returns Batman, whose final battle (ignoring the terrible sequels) was also a one-on-one bout against a Kryptonian. Only Superman was holding back against the TDKR Batman, whereas Nam-Ek wasn't pulling his punches against Keaton, and Keaton's Batman didn't have the advantage of kryptonite that the TDKR Batman had.
Both the TDKR and Keaton Batmen take on a Kryptonian in single combat as their final challenge, and both manage to floor their opponent and gain the upper hand on him before collapsing from their injuries. In the case of the TDKR Batman, his heart attack was induced by a drug he'd taken to fake his own death, but the parallel still stands. I thought it was a suitably heroic way for Keaton to die.
I still want to see him return for a standalone Batman Beyond movie, but if The Flash is his final appearance then I'm satisfied with the heroic way he made his exit. It was certainly a lot more dignified than what happened to Han Solo or Luke Skywalker.
I was starting to do a review/analysis but decided to just post what I had here.
One Last Dance In the Pale Moonlight
The tagline for The Flash (2023) is World's Collide. That statement explains the situation the audience finds themselves in after Barry Allen prevents his mother's death and father's incarceration by travelling back in time. A visual explanation is provided with cinematic universes being depicted as floating orbs. Because of Barry's interference, these orbs begin to merge with one another and create distorted timelines.
The majority of the film takes places in a blend of Tim Burton's Batman universe and Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, but the amalgamation is not clean. Superman was killed as a baby after his escape pod was shot down and Wonder Woman, Cyborg and Aquaman do not exist. Barry Allen does, but he is without superpowers, loud and obnoxious. Subtle details are off from where they should be, such as Michael J Fox not being the lead actor in the Back to the Future movies. Despite the lack of a Justice League, Bruce Wayne and Batman are both known quantities. This revelation leads two Barry Allens to visit him at Wayne Manor.
When we first meet him, this version of Keaton's Bruce resembles The Dude from The Big Lebowski, long haired and wearing flip flops. He has not been Batman for a sustained period of time due to Gotham being one of the safest cities in the world. How exactly that came to pass is unexplained. But what we do know is that without Batman in his life Bruce loses his purpose and lets himself go. This is consistent across all incarnations of the character, more recently shown in 2012's The Dark Knight Rises which depicted Bruce as a bearded recluse living in a crime free Gotham City.
This Keaton Bruce lives in a world where metahumans have not yet revealed themselves. It seems apparent up until the events of The Flash, Batman was the only hero the wider public knew. It's the arrival of General Zod, as in Man of Steel, that awakens the world to the existence of aliens and other superheroes. Even in his aimless state, Keaton's Bruce is knowledgeable enough to decipher the concepts of time and the multiverse, even if he is reluctant to help at this stage in the plot. Alfred has since died, and while Bruce seems capable of looking after himself, his cooking and cleanliness does not compare to that of his former British gentleman.
Much like his 1989 self, Bruce uses surveillance to observe the two Barry Allens who manage to enter his batcave. Bruce's inner hero is soon awakened as he accesses a hidden suit vault via eye scan. This is done by opening an old portrait of his parents, which touches upon his origins as both Burton movies did. Keaton also gets to openly speak about the childhood trauma that shaped his life, giving this portrayal a degree of depth other than just being an avatar for action. As a contrast, Affleck's Bruce is firmly against changing the past. Keaton, however, can see the appeal even if he doesn't endorse or condemn it.
Once again back in the suit, Batman helps out in the field but his individuality remains. In Russia to rescue who they believe is Superman, Batman and the Barrys arrive at the location via the batwing. After holding him close during a grapnel ascent, Batman drops Barry to the ground hard as soon as possible and and walks away stealthily, disappearing into the night. When he reaches the storage facility and discovers it is not Superman, Batman coldly states they should leave the base and the individual behind out of a haste of escape.
The action sequence depicts Batman as a quick thinking escape artist whose mind is his greatest weapon. Despite his prowess he is very much human and will avoid combat wherever possible. Not one to walk through machine gun fire like a Terminator, he instead opts to raise his bulletproof cape to protect himself and others, throw a smoke grenade and get moving. He is also shown to use digital binoculars, batarangs, a device evoking the cryptographic sequencer from the Arkham video games, a flashlight, a flame gun built into his wrist, miniature magnetic explosives and of course the upgraded Batwing - making an impressive showcase for what is a guest appearance.
Upon returning to Wayne Manor, Bruce observes himself in a mirror and his self satisfaction at being in the suit again is evident. He is spiritually alive once more. The proud theatricality of Batman is on display when Bruce attempts to restore a Barry Allen's powers through the use of a bat themed kite and electricity. There are a number of verbal callbacks to Batman (1989) which give the sense this is a victory lap, greatest hits type celebration before what could be the final curtain call. These quotes include "Yeah. I'm Batman," "How much do you weigh?" and "Wanna get nuts. Let's get nuts."
The latter comment brings Batman back into the seat of the batwing, flying to the sight of General Zod and his Kryptonians attempting to terraform the Earth. In this sequence we get to see the skill of Batman as a pilot, in one particular sequence using his favored grappling lines to destroy two alien ships. Upon being hit and unable to eject, Batman decides to go out with a bang and control his crash into the mothership. This however, is in vain due to heavy shielding. Distraught at this, Barry reverses time to before this point, warning Batman against such an action.
He instead targets Nam-Ek, who leaps onto the Batwing and causes its eventual destruction. Batman manages to leave the cockpit in time, leading to a battle on the desert plains. For a regular human, Batman fights admirably with the assistance of explosives, and manages to temporarily subdue his opponent before collapsing to the ground. The visual of the bloodied Batman, wounded but defiant, is a strong one and allows him to go out with dignity. His final words to Barry are also fitting and allow a clear character arc and sense of closure. No matter what happens he was already brought back into action and for that he is content.
The new timeline Barry created was doomed, and unlike the events during Man of Steel, Zod and the Kryptonians were going to win the final battle no matter what and kill everyone on the planet through terraforming. The only solution was Barry going back in time and accepting his mother's true fate, putting things back to how they mostly should be. Keaton may have died in that timeline, but Barry deleted it. General Zod's war never played out like that and Keaton was not pulled in to that world to begin with. Yes it happened, and then it didn't. Just as Barry's mother was still alive in the past, Keaton would be as well.
The film's message is that any change, no matter how minor, changes the fabric of reality. The true reality is Barry even has to accept the injustice of his innocent father having to stay locked up in jail and thought of as a murderer. Otherwise it seems Ben Affleck's Batman will remain replaced by George Clooney.
If this was the final dance for Michael Keaton, The Flash served as a snapshot of what people loved about him. It was a true free hit that could serve as an ending while not ruling out future appearances.
I was so worried Keaton would be treated as a joke, but I liked how they handled his death. I liked what he said to Barry right at the end. I have no complaints there. It was a nice send off, and I think the movie in no way took a dump (thankfully) on what Keaton and Burton had already established with their version of Batman.
What's interesting is that they clearly shot that scene at the end with Keaton first (on the courthouse steps) and then later scrapped it. I don't know if that was just a fun gag or what to include Clooney. I think Keaton probably will not appear as Batman again, so the filmmakers thought, well let's have fun with the ending now. The insinuation behind Clooney appearing made me think they're going to use him again in the future, but with the Gunn reboot I suspect this is the end for this version of the Flash.
Quote from: KeatonisBatman on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 00:39I was so worried Keaton would be treated as a joke, but I liked how they handled his death. I liked what he said to Barry right at the end. I have no complaints there.
I think it's important to note that these are just the two deaths we see. There isn't one true death for him due to the constant cycles, but perhaps hundreds, thousands or even millions depending on how long Dark Flash was running around. Going way back, well before the events of the desert battle, allows Keaton to remain alive IMO. Going back just before their deaths in the Zod battle, to allow Barry's mother to remain alive in that universe, is what caused the problems.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:00I think it's important to note that these are just the two deaths we see. There isn't one true death for him due to the constant cycles, but perhaps hundreds, thousands or even millions depending on how long Dark Flash was running around.
Yeah, I took it kinda like how the did with Avengers Endgame... that there must've been one outcome at least maybe where Batman died and Kara didn't, or vice versa. In any case, I would've liked the Clooney cameo to have been replaced with Keaton. I think a more hopeful ending for his Batman would've been a better capper to the film, insinuating that Barry had arrived in a timeline where they did defeat Zod after all.
Quote from: KeatonisBatman on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 02:54In any case, I would've liked the Clooney cameo to have been replaced with Keaton. I think a more hopeful ending for his Batman would've been a better capper to the film, insinuating that Barry had arrived in a timeline where they did defeat Zod after all.
While I wouldn't say no to having Keaton and Supergirl at the end, I don't really mind Clooney being there in the sense it shows that any change from what actually happened has a consequence. There isn't a clean escape to Barry's problems just because time travel is possible.
I am more or less content with his second death as opposed to the first scenario. Even in the face of certain death, he takes it to Nam-Ek with everything he's got, and manages, against all odds, to (at least temporarily) take the rogue kryptonian down before slowly succumbing to his mortal wounds. His departing words to Barry were earnestly profound, and honestly pulled at the heart strings. At least, it did mine.
+1 on a Batman Beyond movie with Keaton. Oh hell yes. I don't know how likely that is right now with the box office, but I would wholeheartedly welcome that scenario with open arms. Especially so if it's under a more conventional Burtony timeline and aesthetic. If not, and this truly is the end of the road I agree he got a much better, and ultimately more satisfying send off than what Han Solo, and especially Luke Skywalker did. Though, to be perfectly honest, I would preferred the now-deleted ending where another alt-Batkeats, and alt-Supergirl are shown alive and well. As opposed to the ending with Clooney that we got.
As a side note, during the recharge attempt scene with the older Barry at the Batcave, seeing Keaton wearing the safety gloves to protect himself from electrocution, just made me think of Lewis Wilson's Batman from 1943 (luckily assuming they were there for a reason before flipping the switch to restore Linda Page from her zombie like state). As gloves were something you absolutely had to wear when operating Dr. Daka's 'Electrical Brain' machine.
The movie had a number of call backs, yeah, but I doubt that was intentionally one of them. :D
Quote from: KeatonisBatman on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 02:54In any case, I would've liked the Clooney cameo to have been replaced with Keaton. I think a more hopeful ending for his Batman would've been a better capper to the film, insinuating that Barry had arrived in a timeline where they did defeat Zod after all.
Quote from: The Joker on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 08:00Though, to be perfectly honest, I would preferred the now-deleted ending where another alt-Batkeats, and alt-Supergirl are shown alive and well. As opposed to the ending with Clooney that we got.
Hopefully they'll include that alternate ending on the DVD. I think this is going to be a Batman Forever situation where the fan edits are superior to the theatrical cut.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 03:55While I wouldn't say no to having Keaton and Supergirl at the end, I don't really mind Clooney being there in the sense it shows that any change from what actually happened has a consequence. There isn't a clean escape to Barry's problems just because time travel is possible.
One interpretation of Clooney's appearance is that it could signify the Burton and Schumacher universes merging. So maybe the original timeline went B89 – BR – The Flash, with the young Keaton growing into the older Keaton. Then after the Flash resets things we get a new timeline that goes B89 – BR – BF – B&R. So instead of maturing into the old Keaton we see in The Flash, the Burtonverse Bruce instead matures into the more cheerful Clooney version.
I'm sure this is not what the filmmakers intended, but it's another theory to add to the mix.
Quote from: The Joker on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 08:00As a side note, during the recharge attempt scene with the older Barry at the Batcave, seeing Keaton wearing the safety gloves to protect himself from electrocution, just made me think of Lewis Wilson's Batman from 1943 (luckily assuming they were there for a reason before flipping the switch to restore Linda Page from her zombie like state). As gloves were something you absolutely had to wear when operating Dr. Daka's 'Electrical Brain' machine.
The movie had a number of call backs, yeah, but I doubt that was intentionally one of them. :D
I noticed a couple of other possible nods to earlier screen versions of Batman. One was the "How much do you weigh?" scene where Batman plants the device under the lift to make it rocket upwards. This reminded me of the sixties TV episode 'The Cat and the Fiddle' where the West Batman does something similar, as seen at the start of the following clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTKNc8W8VL8
Then there was the scene where Bruce was shown stitching up the wound in his arm like Baleman did in The Dark Knight. Bruce is wearing a black t-shirt in both scenes, which made the visual similarity more obvious.
I don't know if either of these parallels were intentional, but they're present all the same.
Another observation. The first time we see Keaton in The Flash is a close-up shot of his bare foot in the kitchen of stately Wayne Manor. What did Bruce say about Alfred the last time we saw him in that kitchen? "I couldn't find my socks without him."
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 14:22Hopefully they'll include that alternate ending on the DVD. I think this is going to be a Batman Forever situation where the fan edits are superior to the theatrical cut.
Andrés Muschietti has stated that there indeed is a 4-hour cut of "The Flash", but notes that he prefers the theatrical cut better. Whether that's PR or he's being honest remains to be seen, but there's presumably at least a decent amount of footage featuring Keaton's Batman unseen by the public thus far. Especially so if you factor in the filmed-but-cancelled "Batgirl" movie.
QuoteI noticed a couple of other possible nods to earlier screen versions of Batman. One was the "How much do you weigh?" scene where Batman plants the device under the lift to make it rocket upwards. This reminded me of the sixties TV episode 'The Cat and the Fiddle' where the West Batman does something similar, as seen at the start of the following clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTKNc8W8VL8
Then there was the scene where Bruce was shown stitching up the wound in his arm like Baleman did in The Dark Knight. Bruce is wearing a black t-shirt in both scenes, which made the visual similarity more obvious.
I don't know if either of these parallels were intentional, but they're present all the same.
Another observation. The first time we see Keaton in The Flash is a close-up shot of his bare foot in the kitchen of stately Wayne Manor. What did Bruce say about Alfred the last time we saw him in that kitchen? "I couldn't find my socks without him."
;D
Nice! I'll be more cognizant of these instances during my 2nd viewing.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 14:22Another observation. The first time we see Keaton in The Flash is a close-up shot of his bare foot in the kitchen of stately Wayne Manor. What did Bruce say about Alfred the last time we saw him in that kitchen? "I couldn't find my socks without him."
On the table when Bruce walks over it to attack the two Barrys there is a Gotham City Pizzas box. Without Alfred he's eating easy to prepare meals or junk food that's either delivered or heated up in a microwave. "I'll cancel the pizzas."
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 20:50On the table when Bruce walks over it to attack the two Barrys there is a Gotham City Pizzas box. Without Alfred he's eating easy to prepare meals or junk food that's either delivered or heated up in a microwave. "I'll cancel the pizzas."
I missed that detail. Keaton's Bruce probably doesn't even know how to operate a dishwasher. He was clearly a mess without Alfred to look after him, and I'm now starting to think he was serious when he told Vicki he didn't recognise his own dining room. He's like a savant, so wrapped up in his work down in the cave that he doesn't know how to function on a normal day-to-day social or domestic level. On the one hand he's brilliant enough to hack into the Kremlin computer system and uncover top secret data on crashed UFOs, but on the other hand he doesn't know that vichyssoise is served cold.
It reminds me of Watson's description of Sherlock Holmes in A Study in Scarlet:
Quote"His ignorance was as remarkable as his knowledge. Of contemporary literature, philosophy and politics he appeared to know next to nothing. Upon my quoting Thomas Carlyle, he inquired in the naivest way who he might be and what he had done. My surprise reached a climax, however, when I found incidentally that he was ignorant of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System. That any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware that the earth travelled round the sun appeared to be to me such an extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it."
Holmes is an expert in fields relevant to his crime fighting, but laughably ignorant of subjects outside of it. Similarly Keaton's Bruce is an expert at chemistry, engineering, computer science, hacking, psychology, profiling, criminology, etc, but seems severely challenged when it comes to looking after himself.
At first I thought it was a shame they didn't reference Gough's Alfred more heavily in The Flash – perhaps in the form of a portrait – but in a way, by showing how Bruce struggles without him, the film makes a touching point about just how important the old butler was in his life. Perhaps Alfred was the one keeping 'Bruce Wayne' alive, and without him all that remains is Batman.
Taking down a crime cartel is easy for Bruce. But ironing his own clothes? That's a challenge.
I'm still unclear on his ultimate fate. I get that within the world shown in the film the earth is doomed no matter what. However, the way I see it is that Keaton's Batman was pulled into it after Barry changed the timeline. However, if my theory is correct, once Barry fixed what he did does that send Keaton back to his original timeline?
There are a couple lines from Keaton that lead me to believe that that isn't his ultimate fate. When they're in Wayne Manor Keaton states that Zod coming to earth is a result of what Barry did, and as he's dying a second time his response to Barry saving him is "Not this time, but maybe some other time." I think they intentionally leave it ambiguous.
But taking his death in this movie at face value, a characteristic from the Burton films that I'm happy was carried over was his lack of fear. In Siberia he immediately takes charge of the situation, diving head first into danger when the two Barry's are cornered, and being the first one to enter Supergirl's pod when the two Barry's are hesitant. And again in the final battle he engages the Kryptonian gun ships and takes on the largest Kryptonian he can find once he ejects from the Batwing. So I did appreciate how that was portrayed.
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 17:52I'm still unclear on his ultimate fate. I get that within the world shown in the film the earth is doomed no matter what. However, the way I see it is that Keaton's Batman was pulled into it after Barry changed the timeline. However, if my theory is correct, once Barry fixed what he did does that send Keaton back to his original timeline?
That's one way of looking at it. Another option, is that Keaton's Batman in "The Flash" is a variant. Possibly even 98-98% accurate to what a pristine and pure Burtonverse Batman untouched by timeline shenanigans would have been like at this stage, but a variant nevertheless.
Course, Keaton's Batman
could have been pulled into this timeline, where this new reality being the
accepted reality with Keaton none the wiser, and was indeed sent back to the Burtonverse following Barry's realization of what he's doing during the multiverse scene... It would have been nice, following the decision to go with the Clooney ending route, to have had even a quick cameo of Keaton's Batman, with a decidedly Burton/Furst Gotham in the background during the multiverse scene. Just to indicate Keaton's
Batman Continues back at home.
QuoteThere are a couple lines from Keaton that lead me to believe that that isn't his ultimate fate. When they're in Wayne Manor Keaton states that Zod coming to earth is a result of what Barry did, and as he's dying a second time his response to Barry saving him is "Not this time, but maybe some other time." I think they intentionally leave it ambiguous.
True. I think that line, as originally intended, would have played into Keaton reappearing again in the original ending for "The Flash", along with Sasha Calle's Supergirl. Interested to know what the dialogue was for that scene to say the least.
QuoteBut taking his death in this movie at face value, a characteristic from the Burton films that I'm happy was carried over was his lack of fear. In Siberia he immediately takes charge of the situation, diving head first into danger when the two Barry's are cornered, and being the first one to enter Supergirl's pod when the two Barry's are hesitant. And again in the final battle he engages the Kryptonian gun ships and takes on the largest Kryptonian he can find once he ejects from the Batwing. So I did appreciate how that was portrayed.
Agreed. It was very much David vs Goliath when Keaton's Batman took the fight to Nam-Ek, and he showed absolutely no fear in doing so.
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 17:52When they're in Wayne Manor Keaton states that Zod coming to earth is a result of what Barry did, and as he's dying a second time his response to Barry saving him is "Not this time, but maybe some other time."
Come to think of it, that's also the phrase Brucefleck uses when saying goodbye to Barry. I admit that's a nice touch across the timelines.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 14 Jul 2023, 10:55Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 17:52When they're in Wayne Manor Keaton states that Zod coming to earth is a result of what Barry did, and as he's dying a second time his response to Barry saving him is "Not this time, but maybe some other time."
Come to think of it, that's also the phrase Brucefleck uses when saying goodbye to Barry. I admit that's a nice touch across the timelines.
That's also definitely meant to telegraph his reappearance at the end of the film. That time, I suspect, they do walk off together with Supergirl.
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 17:52But taking his death in this movie at face value, a characteristic from the Burton films that I'm happy was carried over was his lack of fear. In Siberia he immediately takes charge of the situation, diving head first into danger when the two Barry's are cornered, and being the first one to enter Supergirl's pod when the two Barry's are hesitant. And again in the final battle he engages the Kryptonian gun ships and takes on the largest Kryptonian he can find once he ejects from the Batwing. So I did appreciate how that was portrayed.
I've been thinking about this. Batman is all about preparation and evening the odds to ensure victory. But if he knew he was going to die against overpowered foes he would still suit up and go into battle. He can't choose who his opponents are. Zod and the Krypronians are going to terraform the Earth and everyone is going to die. He will take down some of their equipment but he isn't going to win. It's the same thing if a knife wielding bandit threatens your girlfriend. You're likely going to get stabbed and bleed out but as a man you can't run away. I don't believe the Burton Batman would ever meet such threats in his timeline but it's comforting to know what he'd be willing to do.