Batman-Online.com

Officially announced for a 10.04.24 release date.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zgttt8Q2Rw

(https://i0.wp.com/bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/joker-22.png)

Definitely looking forward to this one.

After today's announcement, it was time for "Joker: Folie à Deux" to get what it ****ing deserves!

It's own thread.

Joker II and The Batman II are the only WB projects I'm passionately interested in, and this is where their mind should be at. I think the goal here should be not to mimic the first movie too much, but to provide a different type of experience. I've seen recent chatter that a lot of the movie does involve Arkham, and the musical component is present but perhaps not as dominant as first thought. A Clockwork Orange's 'Singing in the Rain' moment has been used as an example. If Joker 2's violence is as hard as the leaks suggest the movie will be a force of nature. And exactly what this particular universe should be capable of.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 21 Sep  2019, 06:35
As for the disturbing commentary, I don't see the problem because that excites me the most. I'm hoping for hyper realism to the point if feels like a documentary, shocking people to the core. It's time for F bombs and blood, showing the full potential of the cinematic character, well elevated above what Nicholson or Ledger presented. Instead of cutting away in a typical B89/TDK style blockbuster, show us the knife going in and the bullet nearly blowing the head off. I think that should be the whole point of the movie. This is the format for that experience, because we're not really going to see it anywhere else outside the comics. We laugh at chattering teeth and long barrelled guns, but gore and tragedy is the true soul of the character.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  5 Aug  2022, 03:03
Joker II and The Batman II are the only WB projects I'm passionately interested in, and this is where their mind should be at. I think the goal here should be not to mimic the first movie too much, but to provide a different type of experience. I've seen recent chatter that a lot of the movie does involve Arkham, and the musical component is present but perhaps not as dominant as first thought. A Clockwork Orange's 'Singing in the Rain' moment has been used as an example. If Joker 2's violence is as hard as the leaks suggest the movie will be a force of nature. And exactly what this particular universe should be capable of.

One interesting facet of JFAD is, as far as I can recall, this is the first time an actor has returned to the Joker in big screen cinema. Nicholson had one bite at the apple. Ledger also only did it once (whatever the plan might have originally been).

But Phoenix is in a unique position to take another swing at the character. There are a lot of possibilities with that kind of opportunity.

When all is said and done, this will be Phoenix's signature role. What I like about this is the fact he now gets to be the Joker full time, opposed to simply becoming him. If it's anything like his appearance on Murray's show, particularly his initial lighthearted entrance, it's something to look forward to.

A thought I had today is using Sinatra version of Fly Me To The Moon during the movie, probably for a sequence of delirious mania as Arthur and Gaga run riot. Obviously the main idea behind this is connective tissue to That's Life from the original. But the lyrics are perfect for a love story that can twist into darkness.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  5 Aug  2022, 03:57

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  5 Aug  2022, 03:03
Joker II and The Batman II are the only WB projects I'm passionately interested in, and this is where their mind should be at. I think the goal here should be not to mimic the first movie too much, but to provide a different type of experience. I've seen recent chatter that a lot of the movie does involve Arkham, and the musical component is present but perhaps not as dominant as first thought. A Clockwork Orange's 'Singing in the Rain' moment has been used as an example. If Joker 2's violence is as hard as the leaks suggest the movie will be a force of nature. And exactly what this particular universe should be capable of.

One interesting facet of JFAD is, as far as I can recall, this is the first time an actor has returned to the Joker in big screen cinema. Nicholson had one bite at the apple. Ledger also only did it once (whatever the plan might have originally been).

But Phoenix is in a unique position to take another swing at the character. There are a lot of possibilities with that kind of opportunity.

Nope, Leto has been Joker in SS and JL.

Quote from: Travesty on Fri,  5 Aug  2022, 14:06Nope, Leto has been Joker in SS and JL.

Technically the truth. But Leto's ZSJL role was so small... eh. If you think it counts, fine. I'll accept it. But's so brief...

I actually think his role was even more brief in SS. lol

Leto is another DCEU actor that effectively joined Miller, Heard and Cavill in being hidden from view due to differing reasons. Imagine signing up to play such a prominent, iconic role and having only a handful of minutes of footage in total put on the big screen. If a reboot does happen down the line, that can't be allowed to happen again. It kills the momentum and integrity of a shared universe as gaping holes are created. And then along came Phoenix with a film and sequel all to himself, rivalling or in my opinion bettering Ledger.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjpWP-iWYAEsiN_?format=jpg&name=900x900)

First look at the musical sequel.

In 2019, JOKER was the only comic book-related project in the pipeline for which I had any enthusiasm or excitement. Strange that I'm in pretty much the exact same situation with Folie à Deux.

But is it? TJ's first look looks like a logical visual continuation of the original. Certainly, Phoenix seems to be bodily back in character. It's very thrilling how this looks like it'll very much in the same vocabulary as the first one.

I still don't understand the 2024 release date. Makes me wonder that there's some boardroom shenanigans going on there. But whatever. Can't wait to see this movie.

Composer Hildur Guðnadóttir is officially back and has begun working on the film. It's great that the original creative talent is on board for the sequel, knowing what we will receive is wholly legitimate and how it should be. I can't imagine JOKER being the same without Guðnadóttir's score.

I loved the score in the first one. Very haunting at times.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 13 Jan  2023, 11:29
Composer Hildur Guðnadóttir is officially back and has begun working on the film. It's great that the original creative talent is on board for the sequel, knowing what we will receive is wholly legitimate and how it should be. I can't imagine JOKER being the same without Guðnadóttir's score.

Her score is one of the best parts of the first movie, if you ask me. I listen to the score semi-regularly and adore it every time. So, this is definitely good news. I would've been disappointed if she didn't come back.

Quote from: Travesty on Fri, 13 Jan  2023, 14:54
I loved the score in the first one. Very haunting at times.

It captures Arthur's mental torment incredibly. Based on the photo of Arthur getting a shave the tone still seems dark and serious, rather than the one note lighthearted musical people are imagining. I think there will be tonal changes, and they would work a lot better in this context. The Joker character is all about making fun of death, misery and hallucinating a world that doesn't exist.

First look at Harley Quinn
(https://images.thedirect.com/media/photos/331014594_727540309097364_7143617315323544428_n.jpg)

Ah, nice.

I wonder if this is going to be shot mainly in Arkham? Last time, we got so many spy pics because they shot on location. We haven't seen anything like that, so far. I'm guessing this will be on a more closed set this time.

Either way, that's a cool pic.

So the rumor is that Harley isn't Joker's doctor, but instead, will be another patient in Arkham alongside Joker.

Some people are mad, but the first film changed the mythos up so much, I don't see any reason to be mad about this, unless you just hated the first movie. These are going to be Elseworld/Black Label for a reason.

Quote from: Travesty on Thu, 23 Feb  2023, 17:21
So the rumor is that Harley isn't Joker's doctor, but instead, will be another patient in Arkham alongside Joker.

Some people are mad, but the first film changed the mythos up so much, I don't see any reason to be mad about this, unless you just hated the first movie. These are going to be Elseworld/Black Label for a reason.

Me either. Differentiating from previous incarnations kinda goes along with the territory.

So there's some set footage going around, and it looks like there's multiple Jokers. Not sure what's going on, but it's cool to see.

Quote from: Travesty on Mon,  6 Mar  2023, 15:03
So there's some set footage going around, and it looks like there's multiple Jokers. Not sure what's going on, but it's cool to see.

I'm guessing it's a dream or hallucination in which Arthur is trying to outrun his past. The two people chasing him – one dressed like Fleck, the other like Joker – probably symbolise former identities he's trying to put behind him.

Quote from: Travesty on Thu, 23 Feb  2023, 17:21
So the rumor is that Harley isn't Joker's doctor, but instead, will be another patient in Arkham alongside Joker.

Some people are mad, but the first film changed the mythos up so much, I don't see any reason to be mad about this, unless you just hated the first movie. These are going to be Elseworld/Black Label for a reason.

Fine by me. The two can become aquainted with each other without Harley being a psychiatrist. Despite being a major difference  I don't think it makes much of a difference in the end. Arguably, both being patients makes their connection stronger as they're automatically on the same level and thus wavelength. It doesn't diminish the Joker's potential to manipulate her emotions. And it makes a clear distinction between this and Margot's take.

I'm still not a big fan, but I've warmed up to the idea of Gaga in recent times. Madonna is a washed up alien hag whose time is well and truly over. I'm completely okay with Gaga being for the here and now, taking the mantle Madonna had once upon a time. She's the better actress, for one. And I can see her delivering an intense type of crazy that isn't as childishly annoying as Robbie. The still image that was recently released suggests that to me.

Quote from: Travesty on Mon,  6 Mar  2023, 15:03
So there's some set footage going around, and it looks like there's multiple Jokers. Not sure what's going on, but it's cool to see.

Joaquin looks great: meaning about the same unhealthy weight as last time. Running through the streets played a large part of the first, too. With this set footage alone I'm feeling comfortable that the sequel will have the same aesthetic of the original while expanding upon what we've already seen. I'm excited about this movie.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon,  6 Mar  2023, 21:49
I'm guessing it's a dream or hallucination in which Arthur is trying to outrun his past. The two people chasing him – one dressed like Fleck, the other like Joker – probably symbolise former identities he's trying to put behind him.

I wouldn't doubt that's the case. After all, Arthur is a rather unreliable narrator, and showcasing his fantasy delusions in vivid fashion would be perfectly aligned with the 2019's "Joker" presentation. At this point, I'm expecting Sophie Dumond's reappearance to run parallel to this.

There's new spy pics that show Arkham is on fire.  8)

Another look at Gaga's Harley Quinn.

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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsEuVM1X0AEvQyG?format=jpg&name=900x900)

I'm going to be disappointed if this all has too many similarities to The Trickster episodes of The Flash. It's bad enough that they won't acknowledge its influence for The Animated Series. They're already on that path in the first one with Arthur's fantasy relationship with Sophie and now it seems like Lady Gaga's Harley will be a crazy fan like Zoey Clark was.

Haven't heard of anything pertaining to Harvey Dent, but .....


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsE1gzOXgAMNP3z.jpg)

Todd Phillips appears to be waging war on my reservations about this sequel.

And he's winning.

Nothing I've seen or heard about the sequel gives me red flags. I'm trusting Phillips and Phoenix know what they're doing.

I'm loving all the set pics. Everything looks great.

I love the Harley design.

New images featuring both Joker and Harley in Folie à Deux.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fs-8T7yXgAMhDL6?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fs-6xgiWIAIHXZI?format=jpg&name=medium)

It's good to finally see Joker in full makeup. I was getting a bit worried there.  8)

Quote from: Travesty on Thu,  6 Apr  2023, 19:31
It's good to finally see Joker in full makeup. I was getting a bit worried there.  8)

You and me both. haha!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7iNkz_XsAMTurb?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCO-XTab0AAj8xd?format=jpg&name=900x900)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCO-_ntaEAA_qYF?format=jpg&name=large)

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In addition to the released images on Valentines Day, Cinematographer Lawrence Sher seems to be downplaying the film being an outright musical. Stating; 'JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX' "isn't a musical per se, it just has music in it." "The music is part of the film and the characters but I don't know if it's a musical. But yes, there is music."

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 15 Feb  2024, 14:17Stating; 'JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX' "isn't a musical per se, it just has music in it." "The music is part of the film and the characters but I don't know if it's a musical. But yes, there is music."

That's good news for me. I'm still skeptical of the "musical" angle, but I love the first movie so much, I'm still pumped for this.

Oh, and those pics are great. Thanks for sharing.  8)

Music was a prominent part of JOKER with the use of That's Life and other musical montages. Retaining that and fleshing it out into something even more surreal (as the enlarged moon in the images suggests) would be fine with me. I'm sure they're not going to prevent Phoenix or Gaga flex their acting muscles. I'm still optimistic about the movie and can't wait for the trailer.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKK309sa0AAro8B?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKGNQ6QWAAAnFO7?format=jpg&name=large)

My anticipation for this movie remains strong.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 10 Apr  2024, 02:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy8aJw1vYHo

My anticipation for this movie remains strong.

Looks f***ing great.

Pretty nice trailer.

God, anything that's bold enough to steer away from the same old, same old, standard formulaic Marvel/DC capestuff that we've been saturated with is a resounding plus!

Phillips/Phoenix have earned trust.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKxV211XEAAG8qZ?format=jpg&name=medium)

A few parallels from the trailer.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKzy5gSXoAA7WB_?format=jpg&name=medium)

Also, there's been some comparisons with the 1964 musical/romance film, "The Umbrellas of Cherbourg".

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GK4tmlnXsAAP9-L?format=jpg&name=large)

And either way you cut it, white suited Joker is always cool.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKxBv1qXYAAs5I_?format=jpg&name=large)

This trailer has energy. This trailer has excitement. The JOKER films know the power of musical montages and juxtaposition, and the emotion it elicits. These sequences from the trailer put the character's psychosis on full blast and show how his state of mind is the character's superpower. Even in a drab cell he can escape to this zany happy place to make his torment easier, and he can also use this mania when killing and escaping.

It seems to me the sequel is going to be a dive into insanity even more than the first. The references to the original film work nicely too, namely the gestures, body language and locations. This looks and feels like the same universe while pushing into new territory. I also dig how it seems Harley exists but could be left up to interpretation just how much of their relationship is real. Can't wait. Movie of the year incoming.

New trailer has been released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OKAwz2MsJs

I don't need to see any more after this. I was sold already but this seals the deal. It looks to have all the original had and more, and it's so good it's from the original creative team. Seems to me a lot of the in suit/makeup Joker scenes may be how Arthur views himself, not how he's actually appearing in public. With the musical montages adding to the element of doubt to the audience's interpretation of events, courtesy of Arthur's unstable mind.

The courtroom stuff looks like it'll be gold, possibly being this movie's version of Murray's talk show. I can also sense Joaquin leaning in to playful, showman Joker in a bunch of these scenes too which I think is exciting.

I echo TDK. This looks very much like a follow-up to the original. Even the lighting looks the same. Very impressed and very excited.

What does everyone expect from the Joker/Harley partnership? Is it real, or do you think there'll be a twist at the end where it turns out Arthur imagined it all and she's really just his therapist?

QuoteWhat does everyone expect from the Joker/Harley partnership? Is it real, or do you think there'll be a twist at the end where it turns out Arthur imagined it all and she's really just his therapist?

I hope it's not that deceptively easy. Phillips has to know that's the easiest deduction to make for this sequel. Hope we don't hear that as an excuse to why this sequel that nobody planned for got made.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 24 Jul  2024, 19:14What does everyone expect from the Joker/Harley partnership? Is it real, or do you think there'll be a twist at the end where it turns out Arthur imagined it all and she's really just his therapist?

If the film's title is to be taken literally, then my guess would be that it's a shared delusion. If anything, I speculate that they're amplifying each other's madness.

Arthur, like Patrick Bateman from "American Psycho", is a proven unreliable narrator, so I think this abstraction will continue for the sequel, but hopefully it's not something like, "It was all purely/mostly in his head". I'm expecting dual delusions from both protagonist's, but I do wonder if there's something to that quick clip from the previous trailer where Harley pulls a gun and points it at Joker (though it could very well be simply apart of the singing/dance routine). Suggesting that, perhaps, this romance between the two is ultimately doomed right from the start. As one could turn on the other at a moments notice, and something that probably would never be explored within a "main line" universe.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 24 Jul  2024, 19:14What does everyone expect from the Joker/Harley partnership? Is it real, or do you think there'll be a twist at the end where it turns out Arthur imagined it all and she's really just his therapist?

It would be good to see Arthur building up this blanket of love and happiness only for it to be torn to bits, either because Harley used him or the relationship was never there in the first place. Which leads to Arthur hating Harley and women in general, becoming even more of a haunted outsider. But even if that doesn't happen I have faith in Phillips to deliver another solid film with the narrative choices.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GTV3r8vXoAA2MYJ?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GTWFoukWEAAw7Cj?format=jpg&name=large)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GT5C70pWYAANN3y?format=jpg&name=large)

I would love to see what a Batman would look like in this universe. I remember being disappointed with the direction they were going in initially, but I can't get enough now. I love the way Joaquin's Joker looks!

Can't wait for this movie to drop.

If this movie is a hit I'm sure the studio drums will be beating to make it a trilogy. Which I'm not against. People argued the first movie was unnecessary and that proved to be wrong. The sequel looks to be shaping up the same way.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUal26uWIAA_2Pz?format=jpg&name=large)

I'm interested to see how much influence Ted Bundy's trial has on the film's court sequence. That was a televised trial as this appears to be. Arthur could be representing himself. I have no idea how Folie A Deux ends, but I think a sentence of the electric chair could be very possible.

IGN just gave it a 5/10.

This is the first review I've seen. Hopefully it's just a one-off.

https://www.ign.com/articles/joker-folie-deux-review-joaquin-phoenix-lady-gaga-todd-phillips (https://www.ign.com/articles/joker-folie-deux-review-joaquin-phoenix-lady-gaga-todd-phillips)

It's getting a mixed response. To be fair, the first film has a 59 on Metacritic and many consider it a modern classic. We'll just have to wait and see for ourselves.

I'm wondering how much of this is sincere and how much of it goes back to It's The Current Year nonsense.

At this point, nothing will stand between me and this movie's opening weekend. But the mixed reception is a little intriguing.

Much like the Burton duology, I honestly don't think some people 'get' what JOKER is all about at the core. I've skimmed some of the reviews and a common thread is them not liking that Folie A Deux is predominantly set inside Arkham and a courtroom. Given how the original ended, those locations seem perfectly logical to me. I long suspected a lot of the musical component was Arthur's mental escapism. I may feel differently when I actually see the film, it could be monotonous, but right now I don't have a problem with this angle in theory.

I'm confident in my assumptions in how the film ends, too. It will depend on how it's done, but I can easily fight a case for it. Again, it will be down to the execution. Underscoring all this is the fact I never took Arthur to be the literal comic book character of 'The Joker' but rather how a 'real world person' with similar traits would be. I remain unintimidated by this initial critical feedback. I see a lot of people saying they thought the original was overrated, and that's when I decide to tune out listening to them. Bring on October.

Some sites are reporting that the budget of Folie à Deux is $200 million. For comparison, Wikipedia lists the first film's budget as $55 million. I wonder why the new film cost almost four times as much.

Mu understanding is that Phoenix was only contracted for the one movie. Plus, Lady Gaga's salary is probably several million dollars above minimum wage.

I can't blame everything on sheer payroll bloat. But if it came out that WB laid out at least $50 million to get Phoenix and Gaga aboard, yeah, that would add up.

I'm continuing my skim through some of the reviews and I'm picking up a theme. Folie A Deux is going to create conversations about who the character is and his motivations. From my point of view Arthur is just a guy. He's someone who suffered an individual experience of misery and lashed out on television, thus becoming a public commodity. If he inspired people that's on them. That goes for any killer. We as the public project our own imaginations onto subjects, and those may not match our expectations in reality.

In the first movie Arthur doesn't have much of anything to do with the movement other than just living his own life. In the sequel he's on the inside and they're on the outside. I guess he'd be thankful for the support he's getting but does he want to be their leader even if he could be? Seems to me it's really about the spirit of rebellion that Arthur demonstrated against Murray that the followers are excited by. But when the makeup comes off Joker's seemingly back to being angsty self doubting Arthur. I don't think Joker and Arthur are seperate entities per se, but Joker instead being something that activates within him under the right conditions.

Avoiding reviews. Doesn't seem like I'll be able to see the movie opening weekend for a variety of reasons. So, I'll probably have to drop out of this thread for a while.

Still, it looks like they're delivering the goods. If the critics are rebelling, the reason isn't apparent in the trailers released so far.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 18 Sep  2024, 19:41Still, it looks like they're delivering the goods. If the critics are rebelling, the reason isn't apparent in the trailers released so far.

The critics don't have a clue and can get f***ed. All the footage I've seen has spunk and screams at the top of its lungs THIS IS A GENUINE SEQUEL. For example I love seeing Garry returning and sitting in the witness box, and Phoenix's mock British accent is both funny and unnerving. You can feel the tension. I don't see how anyone who is a real fan of the first film watches any trailer and doesn't get their blood pumping. I'd dig it if Arthur declined the insanity plea because like Bundy he wants to fight a label he thinks is undeserving of him, while also wanting the limelight/opportunity to confront his tormentors. Choosing that option even though it likely means the death penalty because he cannot bring himself to give them any satisfaction in rolling over. I'll be finding out on opening day with a wheelbarrow of popcorn and crowbar by my side.

I haven't read any reviews, I've only seen the scores. I wanna go into it blind.

In one of the trailers the Gaga Harley says Arthur is a bad influence on her. I'm getting the feeling it could actually be the other way around. Which would be very interesting. Arthur putting on the paint and acting how he's expected to be to please her and others.

Quote from: Travesty on Fri, 20 Sep  2024, 14:56I haven't read any reviews, I've only seen the scores. I wanna go into it blind.

Good man.

Never let the undeserving critics cloud your judgement.


From what I've gathered from recent interviews with Todd Phillips, and Joaquin Phoenix, I'm fully expecting "Folie à Deux" to take some risks. As, I believe, both men have stated that they were intrigued to return for a sequel due to the freedom of being able to take a gamble, and the very real prospect of failure.

How this pans out for the entirety of the film itself as it stands right now, is anyone's guess. I'm not expecting to be head over heels in love with every deviation/risk/change that's going to be taken, but Phillps/Phoenix being given carte blanche with creative freedom is certainly intriguing to think about, and I can respect that. Especially since both more than delivered with their collaboration on "Joker" back in 2019.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GU_Xaf8XEAI-flQ?format=jpg&name=large)
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I am getting to see this in a couple of days. The wait is almost over.

seeing a lot of mixed stuff (most people not liking the musical aspect). If this doesn't do well it'll be another unfortunate slam to more director-driven riskier films. Hopefully, this won't have a negative impact in The Batman 2

Couldn't care less about the critical consensus (Joker 2019 wasn't rated highly either), but this appears to be getting equally mixed reactions with audiences as well. Which is troubling. I'm expecting to (hopefully) check it out Thurs.

I've got tickets for Friday night

Wow, I loved it. A great companion piece to the original. If you want a conventional comic book experience you can park your bus elsewhere. This movie is not to be joked about. Folie A Deux both defies expectations and I think leads to logical conclusions based on the construct of this particular universe. There are really interesting themes in the sequel that I'm eager to unpack, namely the reality behind myth. I'm going to work on an expanded review later. But in short it worked for me. Even the musical numbers. A brave movie that I think will be appreciated even more with time.

(https://i.ibb.co/4dgH41M/Positive-Thoughts.jpg)

It's a real deal sequel and a good one. It's undeserving of the strong hate and it seems a lot of people are buying into that without actually seeing it themselves. Or not approaching it from the right perspective when they do. They are way too hung up on 'who is the real Joker' and the ending. The crux of the movie is the cult of celebrity worship and the pressure of expectation.

IMO Arthur is absolutely the Joker of this universe regardless if we want to take that road, it's just that the legend outgrew him and took on a life of its own. I don't think he wanted to create a movement but he nonetheless was at the centre of it. Joker is mostly a construct in Arthur's mind for escapism, and a fantasy the followers fell in love with. It took too much of a toll on the real man behind it. When he gave them what they wanted he took the full brunt, especially away from the cameras. It didn't benefit him personally in the long term.

Philips and Phoenix should be getting praise - segments of the audience rejecting Arthur is proving the film's point. I love this movie the more I think about it. It's a different look at the character and I'm glad it exists.

Not to get too spoilery, and perhaps I am way off-base, but I can't help but think of this in the same vein as what Gremlins 2 was to Gremlins. With both Gremlins 2 and "Folie à Deux" being unconventional sequels that were literally willed into existence by Warners, due to the unexpected success of the original. Not to mention, where both sequels didn't just take the "expected" route, choosing rather to take a risk, and more glaringly, both sequels having their very own original Looney Tunes intros. Your mileage may vary, but I appreciate the different approach and taking a big swing. Especially if done well, and I thought "Folie à Deux" was directed very well, and honestly didn't see any hint that Todd Phillips, nor Phoenix, was simply on auto-pilot. The continued character study of Arthur Fleck was handled well I thought, as well as the impact of the legacy media continued sensationalism of "Joker" and how that excessive aggrandizement resulted in Arthur being viewed as a figure of idolatry. Where, in the grand scheme of things, the symbolic portraiture of the "Joker", and what people interpreted what he represented, eventually overshadowed the man himself.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  4 Oct  2024, 06:44both sequels having their very own original Looney Tunes intros. Your mileage may vary, but I appreciate the different approach and taking a big swing.

Glad you're liking the movie overall, and interesting comparison. You're on the money. That opening intro felt consistent with what came later in the musical delusions too. Especially in one specific scene involving Arthur and Lee at Arkham. I think those montages fit in cleanly and transitioned in a logical way. For a film set in two main locations they provided a reprieve from the day to day existence. They're the 'comic' element juxtaposed to the brutal reality. I found the song usage charming, particularly Dancing in the Moonlight and again Sinatra's That's Life. No matter how bad things are music can soothe the soul and give a sense of hope. Billy Joel's My Life pops up as well, which has very relevant lyrics. Loved that.

I don't know how I feel about it. I have to digest it a little. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it, either.

I dunno?

I wasn't a fan of the musical numbers. I think a few worked, but I felt there were way too many. Again, I have to think about this for a bit.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  4 Oct  2024, 12:38Glad you're liking the movie overall, and interesting comparison. You're on the money. That opening intro felt consistent with what came later in the musical delusions too. Especially in one specific scene involving Arthur and Lee at Arkham. I think those montages fit in cleanly and transitioned in a logical way.

I think one of the things you and I have in common, is that we don't mind films that lend into the unconventional or quirkiness (for instance I actually like the Mel Gibson movie "The Beaver" even though it's incredibly quirky, and I honestly wouldn't even call it a 'good' movie, but the offbeat comical nature of it all is just too fascinating), and I think it's safe to say that "Joker Folie à Deux" also falls into this sort of category.

Prior to Disney's MCU, and the whole "shared universe" deal, comic book films were largely self contained cinematic Elseworlds/What Ifs that were self contained stories. Thus giving whatever filmmaker/storyteller the creative freedom to put their own unique stamp on the IP . Phillips' "Joker" films are definitely a throwback to that era, and being a guy who's just so beyond tired of the "shared universe" shtick (it was a novelty there for a while, but eventually the concept begins to buckle under it's own weight in terms of continuity and films coming across as same old, same old), I can't help but appreciate the brazenness of this sequel's very unique vision of what a follow up story to Arthur Fleck's Joker would be like. At the same time, I can absolutely understand anyone who doesn't like the approach taken with this. As "Joker Folie à Deux" does squash any preconceived notions of a sequel.

With what TDK said about musical delusions, I agree wholeheartedly. It's about insanity being locked up in a vacuum. Which, at this stage, has Arthur experiencing delusions relating to his life, what he had done, and his new connection to 'Lee'. With 'Lee' she's continually pushing Fleck, even though she at the same time, is fully aware that Arthur's past actions has obviously broken him. In the grand scheme, this isn't a bother to 'Lee'. Much like the masses, the media, and the character of Wayne Gale from "Natural Born Killers", it's about selfishness, and theatre. She, like the audience, is focused on wanting a show. Which is meta aspect of this film I think (and which also goes along with my Gremlins 2 comparisons as that film assuredly had it's share of meta moments as well).

 

QuoteFor a film set in two main locations they provided a reprieve from the day to day existence. They're the 'comic' element juxtaposed to the brutal reality. I found the song usage charming, particularly Dancing in the Moonlight and again Sinatra's That's Life. No matter how bad things are music can soothe the soul and give a sense of hope. Billy Joel's My Life pops up as well, which has very relevant lyrics. Loved that.

Absolutely! I also liked the rendition of the Carpenter's "Close to you", and Arthur's sequence singing Anthony Newley's "The Joker".

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  5 Oct  2024, 02:28I think one of the things you and I have in common, is that we don't mind films that lend into the unconventional or quirkiness (for instance I actually like the Mel Gibson movie "The Beaver" even though it's incredibly quirky, and I honestly wouldn't even call it a 'good' movie, but the offbeat comical nature of it all is just too fascinating), and I think it's safe to say that "Joker Folie à Deux" also falls into this sort of category.

Accurate. We already have the joybuzzing permawhite Joker of Nicholson and the agent of chaos from Ledger. There's room for Arthur's broken man who had his big moment on Murray Franklin and then was put in jail. What also needs to be considered about the ending is that Arthur WAS going to get the electric chair as the comic version would in reality anyway. Folie A Deux presents that reality in a stark way.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  5 Oct  2024, 02:28With what TDK said about musical delusions, I agree wholeheartedly. It's about insanity being locked up in a vacuum. Which, at this stage, has Arthur experiencing delusions relating to his life, what he had done, and his new connection to 'Lee'. With 'Lee' she's continually pushing Fleck, even though she at the same time, is fully aware that Arthur's past actions has obviously broken him. In the grand scheme, this isn't a bother to 'Lee'. Much like the masses, the media, and the character of Wayne Gale from "Natural Born Killers", it's about selfishness, and theatre. She, like the audience, is focused on wanting a show. Which is meta aspect of this film I think (and which also goes along with my Gremlins 2 comparisons as that film assuredly had it's share of meta moments as well).

The movie was powerful to me personally because it solidified a lot of how I've felt as an adult. That nothing really matters and nobody cares. We're really just on our own and things go through the motions. We all build things up in our imaginations that often don't match reality. Lee had celebrity worship. Arthur had delusional longing for love. She gave Arthur a sense of purpose and excitement he was lacking. I'm sure he knew Lee was a liar, but he had no one else. These movies are about the human condition and are very effective. I walked out of the cinema a different person to the one I entered, and was pondering what I had seen for hours after.

I figured this film would easily wind up being divisive among fans and general audiences when I saw it this past Thurs, but holy toledo! The reactions I've read online, and including the lethargic box office numbers, sure is making it seem like Joker 2 is (almost) just flat out universally despised. I think I saw on X where "CinemaScore" or something giving it the worst score ever for a comic book movie. That, to be clear, makes Joker 2, in their estimation, worse than anything comic book related that Disney/Warners/Fox/Sony/ect has ever produced! Something I can't help but find both interesting, and incredibly amusing. LOL 

Honestly, I can't sit here and lie and tell someone I would much rather watch something like "The Marvels", or "Blue Beetle", or "Morbius" over Joker 2 cause, well, that would be lying wouldn't it?  ;D

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  5 Oct  2024, 03:46Accurate. We already have the joybuzzing permawhite Joker of Nicholson and the agent of chaos from Ledger. There's room for Arthur's broken man who had his big moment on Murray Franklin and then was put in jail. What also needs to be considered about the ending is that Arthur WAS going to get the electric chair as the comic version would in reality anyway. Folie A Deux presents that reality in a stark way.

Right on. I've always chose to view these films as cinematic elseworlds tales that doesn't have to follow the comic iteration history to a T, and hardly any really do. Which is good, cause I'd want a filmmaker to have the creative freedom to experiment, rather than be beholden to standard formula. Which tends to get schlocky after awhile. 

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  5 Oct  2024, 02:28The movie was powerful to me personally because it solidified a lot of how I've felt as an adult. That nothing really matters and nobody cares. We're really just on our own and things go through the motions. We all build things up in our imaginations that often don't match reality. Lee had celebrity worship. Arthur had delusional longing for love. She gave Arthur a sense of purpose and excitement he was lacking. I'm sure he knew Lee was a liar, but he had no one else. These movies are about the human condition and are very effective. I walked out of the cinema a different person to the one I entered, and was pondering what I had seen for hours after.

Yeah, there was definitely a inverted dysfunctional codependency angle where Arthur was the one more attached where classically it's the other way around. Like you, I enjoyed and appreciate the unique experiment. It's incredibly atypical for sure, and very much unlike any comic book related movie that I am aware of.

Quote from: The Joker on Sun,  6 Oct  2024, 00:51I figured this film would easily wind up being divisive among fans and general audiences when I saw it this past Thurs, but holy toledo! The reactions I've read online, and including the lethargic box office numbers, sure is making it seem like Joker 2 is (almost) just flat out universally despised. I think I saw on X where "CinemaScore" or something giving it the worst score ever for a comic book movie. That, to be clear, makes Joker 2, in their estimation, worse than anything comic book related that Disney/Warners/Fox/Sony/ect has ever produced! Something I can't help but find both interesting, and incredibly amusing. LOL 

Honestly, I can't sit here and lie and tell someone I would much rather watch something like "The Marvels", or "Blue Beetle", or "Morbius" over Joker 2 cause, well, that would be lying wouldn't it?  ;D

Yeah. The reaction has become hysterically hyperbolic. It makes the rating system absolutely worthless in my eyes if a well made film like Folie A Deux gets the tag of worst comic based film ever from rage scores of 1/5. That's the real joke. Even the original Joker movie has a low score, which to me says a lot. Folie A Deux will now have a bad reputation because of Rotten Tomatoes and a lot of sheep will go along with it. Right now I put the two Joker films up there with the Burton duology in terms of my appreciation.

Ok, I'm skimming this thread and I can see a few of you are liking the movie. After sitting on it for a few days, I'm just not feeling it. I'm not trying to bring anything down, but it is what it is. I don't like this movie overall. Sure, it's not the worst thing(I wont be giving it below a 5), but I expecting much higher from Todd Phillips....MUCH higher!

Man, I really wanted to love this. I really did. I dunno? This was a bummer for me.

Maybe I'll deep dive into it later, but I rather not at this point. I'll let you guys do your thing. Just ignore me. It is what it is. I wanted to like it.

I guess I'll see what everyone is saying outside of here. I still haven't read or watched any reviews. I think I'll queue up some YT reviews tonight. Again, I'm pretty bummed on this one. More so than I was expecting.

Bummer....

Quote from: Travesty on Sun,  6 Oct  2024, 06:10I guess I'll see what everyone is saying outside of here. I still haven't read or watched any reviews. I think I'll queue up some YT reviews tonight. Again, I'm pretty bummed on this one. More so than I was expecting.

I've done enough of that and I'm going to stop. It's too frustrating. I get that the film wasn't what some were expecting (that's fine) but a lot of the feedback has become a hate tsunami that ignores or dismisses what's contained within.

The supporters setting off the car bomb outside court shows the persona really has taken on a life of its own. The Joker movement already killed Thomas and Martha Wayne in the first movie, no doubt inspiring young Bruce to eventually don the cape and cowl. Arthur was never going to meet Batman either because their age disparity was too great. I just don't have a problem with what we see here in this particular context.

Arthur ends up as a victim of the same violence he was empowering. That's Life playing over the end credits feels like a fitting statement. A dream (a relationship with Lee) has been stomped, Arthur has rolled up into a big ball and died, and that's life.

The TV movie made about his rise to prominence made him a public commodity and bigger in their imaginations. I love talking about this stuff. Tonally it's no different to the original in my opinion, just expanded. Arthur hallucinated about being on Murray's show at the beginning of film one. We did have musical montages. This did push the envelope but at the same time doesn't feel out of left field to me.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun,  6 Oct  2024, 01:29Yeah. The reaction has become hysterically hyperbolic. It makes the rating system absolutely worthless in my eyes if a well made film like Folie A Deux gets the tag of worst comic based film ever from rage scores of 1/5. That's the real joke. Even the original Joker movie has a low score, which to me says a lot. Folie A Deux will now have a bad reputation because of Rotten Tomatoes and a lot of sheep will go along with it.

Yeah, I just can't imagine thinking with a clear head, "Hey! You know what? Catwoman with Halle Berry, or Josh Trank's Fantastic Four are actually better than Joker 2!"

What a time to be alive.

QuoteRight now I put the two Joker films up there with the Burton duology in terms of my appreciation.

You know something? I'm kinda right there with you on this. A friend of mine often participate in friendly debates every so often about what Batman movies we like the best. He's in the Nolan camp cause he prefers the more serious/hyper realistic take, where I continually state that I am firmly in the Burton camp cause I prefer the gothic/aesthetic/fantasical interpretation. I honestly was really into the Nolan films as they were released, but I've honestly find myself reaching for my copy of Joker to rewatch more often in the past 4-5 years or so. To me, Joker 2 kinda hit that sweet spot between the more solemn and leaning more into the illusory...

Quote from: Travesty on Sun,  6 Oct  2024, 06:10Ok, I'm skimming this thread and I can see a few of you are liking the movie. After sitting on it for a few days, I'm just not feeling it. I'm not trying to bring anything down, but it is what it is. I don't like this movie overall. Sure, it's not the worst thing(I wont be giving it below a 5), but I expecting much higher from Todd Phillips....MUCH higher!

Man, I really wanted to love this. I really did. I dunno? This was a bummer for me.

Maybe I'll deep dive into it later, but I rather not at this point. I'll let you guys do your thing. Just ignore me. It is what it is. I wanted to like it.

I guess I'll see what everyone is saying outside of here. I still haven't read or watched any reviews. I think I'll queue up some YT reviews tonight. Again, I'm pretty bummed on this one. More so than I was expecting.

Bummer....

Perfectly understandable.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun,  6 Oct  2024, 07:04I've done enough of that and I'm going to stop. It's too frustrating. I get that the film wasn't what some were expecting (that's fine) but a lot of the feedback has become a hate tsunami that ignores or dismisses what's contained within.

The supporters setting off the car bomb outside court shows the persona really has taken on a life of its own. The Joker movement already killed Thomas and Martha Wayne in the first movie, no doubt inspiring young Bruce to eventually don the cape and cowl. Arthur was never going to meet Batman either because their age disparity was too great. I just don't have a problem with what we see here in this particular context.

Arthur ends up as a victim of the same violence he was empowering. That's Life playing over the end credits feels like a fitting statement. A dream (a relationship with Lee) has been stomped, Arthur has rolled up into a big ball and died, and that's life.

The TV movie made about his rise to prominence made him a public commodity and bigger in their imaginations. I love talking about this stuff. Tonally it's no different to the original in my opinion, just expanded. Arthur hallucinated about being on Murray's show at the beginning of film one. We did have musical montages. This did push the envelope but at the same time doesn't feel out of left field to me.

Admittedly, I walked out thinking it was very different than Joker 2019, but hmmm ... that is food for thought, TDK. I can't say I disagree the more I think about it.

Just to talk about some positives, I have to say I really liked the WB Looney Tunes Joker intro that comically foretells Arthur as the Joker, and his "shadow".

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GZEVDiQXMAAW5VI?format=jpg&name=large)

Much like Joker 2019, I also was very keen on how the opening title card was incorporated. Such a great visual!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GZOC8F_X0AAvklP?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: The Joker on Sun,  6 Oct  2024, 23:01Just to talk about some positives, I have to say I really liked the WB Looney Tunes Joker intro that comically foretells Arthur as the Joker, and his "shadow".

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GZEVDiQXMAAW5VI?format=jpg&name=large)

It's a testament to you as a big fan of the character you can see the intent of what's going on: that Arthur can't match his shadow. I think the hard backlash is because viewers really do love the Joker as a character and see Folie A Deux as severely disrespecting him. I get that passion.

When Lee stands up and leaves the room that's exactly what we're seeing in real life with the negative feedback. Total abandonment of Arthur and rushing to elevate what Joker typically stands for. Comic Joker is complete bulletproof confidence and an ability to escape at will. That's not the case here.

The guards liked Arthur, but the inmates liked Joker. He had to straddle that line and eventually he chose to be Arthur. No choice has good outcomes, as the film depicts. It literally causes his death with the shanking in terms of the other prisoners, and it pushes Lee and his followers away. But he's the one being raped in there.

He had to listen to his friend being killed. Those guards were God. I imagine Arthur came to see how being Joker (as recently as the courtroom appearance) became more about pleasing others compared to his original gripe that drove him to murder in the first place. Acting as a comic book character has its limits on real people.

I feel like the audience response is very similar, almost the same in fact, to the response toward Glass. What's baffling in both cases is we have a series that is an unconventional foray into the world of comics-- very unconventional. The series and its creator are very upfront about that and that's actually (one of the reasons) why people love it, but when the series sticks to that instead of embracing convention in its final act, which is what Joker 2 is, the audience turns on it. This counts double because the Batman fandom is especially horrible. Now J2 is stuck with a rabid and toxic fan base that is furious because it stuck to the intentions laid out for it, and also because it interrogates the first movie, and that pisses off the 'Joker is Right' people. In fact, that's the best thing it does as the first film makes up its mind early and fails precisely because it allows Joker to be right in the absence of rebuttal.

For my money, I don't love Joker 2. I think, like the first film, it is a deeply flawed film that only ever manages very baseline observations, but is a masterpiece of technical aspects that celebrates the indulgent but passionate Hollywood of yesteryear. That's why despite being a C+ movie, Joker 1 captivated. It got shots, not 'coverage.' It's a movie, not content. However, J2 also suffers because it plays like one giant anticlimactic final act and cannot capture tension and flow like the first film and thus is a far more ponderous experience.

Joker 2 is okay, but you cannot make YouTube videos with titles like that. It either has to be a masterpiece or an abomination, and with Batman fans involved you can't engage without getting filthy in the cesspool. A happy Batman fan is one who limits how much they engage with the fan base. If you can do that, you'll find something here. 

I had my issues with the first film, so to see a follow-up that has similar contempt for comic books as a medium fall short is nothing I'm going to lose sleep over. The odd trend of "supervillain movies without their accompanying superheroes" that was perfected by Sony seems to be drawing to a close.

Why was Tim Burton treated so harshly over not having a background in comic books? Over him giving the Joker a name and backstory? Over his Joker killing the Waynes? The first Joker movie was somehow shielded from any criticism of neglecting the source material, and even the sequel doesn't seem to get criticism in that department.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon,  7 Oct  2024, 08:15It's a testament to you as a big fan of the character you can see the intent of what's going on: that Arthur can't match his shadow. I think the hard backlash is because viewers really do love the Joker as a character and see Folie A Deux as severely disrespecting him. I get that passion.

Right on. I appreciate that. I think most people are open to different interpretations, but at the same time, want the Joker character to be interpreted with parameters in mind. That's not a criticism either. Just the way it goes. I grew up reading numerous elseworlds stories that interpreted the Joker very differently than what the then-status quo was offering. Such as stories like the Joker being the good detective, where Batman & Catwoman were Bonnie & Clyde type criminals, or one such 2-part Showcase '94 story (The Great Pretender/King Joker) where some guy name "Joe" is convinced he's the Joker. Later, kills his wife, paints his face with Joker makeup, and as the story goes, descends into a hellish realm where other characters are being imprisoned and starved (Tim Drake is starving and emanicated, I think Bane commits suicide by hanging and the book notes a stench is beginning to form), where "Joe" eventually encounters a demonic Hellraiser-ish "king Joker" that rules over this realm. "Joe"succeeds in supplanting this Joker, and he congratulates himself by digging into his face until he's left with the grotesque visage of a bloody skeleton face ala Poltergeist. I think this 2-parter even included two babies in a cribbage infected with Joker venom, and all of this wasn't even under DC's Vertigo imprint as it was featured in DC Showcase. Which makes it even more wild. I could go on and on, but that one, in my memory, veered way off the then-standard depiction, but I enjoyed it nevertheless. These days, I would probably consider it too edgy, but in '94, I was all about edgy. haha

QuoteWhen Lee stands up and leaves the room that's exactly what we're seeing in real life with the negative feedback. Total abandonment of Arthur and rushing to elevate what Joker typically stands for. Comic Joker is complete bulletproof confidence and an ability to escape at will. That's not the case here.

Just to add to this, I also like how the sequel brings everything full circle. Arthur's original intention in going on the Murray Franklin Show, was to publicly commit suicide. That was the plan. It's not until Murray becomes increasingly contrarian to Arthur's worldview, that Arthur decides to publicly kill Murray instead. With the sequel, when Arthur decides to discontinue his Joker persona as he slowly begins to crack, he's essentially met with the same disappointment Arthur once had with Murray Franklin. culminating with one of the Joker's most ardent supporters being given the opportunity by the guards to murder Arthur, and reciting the very same line "Joker" famously said to Murray Franklin, "You get what you f**king deserve.

QuoteThe guards liked Arthur, but the inmates liked Joker. He had to straddle that line and eventually he chose to be Arthur. No choice has good outcomes, as the film depicts. It literally causes his death with the shanking in terms of the other prisoners, and it pushes Lee and his followers away. But he's the one being raped in there.

Exactly. Comic book films generally are very bombastic and glamorous in many respect. "Folie à Deux", outside of the musical sequences, is anything but. Even more indicative when we first see Arthur and how he's been essentially just merely existing for the past two years (if you want to even call it that).

QuoteHe had to listen to his friend being killed. Those guards were God. I imagine Arthur came to see how being Joker (as recently as the courtroom appearance) became more about pleasing others compared to his original gripe that drove him to murder in the first place. Acting as a comic book character has its limits on real people.

Right. Lee was not dissimilar to particular women who wind up having a thing for serial killers (probably even more so if they are fairly 'high profile'). As there is assuredly an element of infamous illustriousness that they find attractive given the reputation. I doubt Lee in this universe ever really did anything interesting with her life, but she was able to pull strings and get close to Arthur in the hopes of getting a "show". Much like the Joker followers in the film. Arthur, as "Joker" was a willing participant in being the showman, until the fantasy was no longer gratifying any longer. And that's all they really had. The fantasy. 

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 10 Oct  2024, 23:43Just to add to this, I also like how the sequel brings everything full circle. Arthur's original intention in going on the Murray Franklin Show, was to publicly commit suicide. That was the plan. It's not until Murray becomes increasingly contrarian to Arthur's worldview, that Arthur decides to publicly kill Murray instead. With the sequel, when Arthur decides to discontinue his Joker persona as he slowly begins to crack, he's essentially met with the same disappointment Arthur once had with Murray Franklin. culminating with one of the Joker's most ardent supporters being given the opportunity by the guards to murder Arthur, and reciting the very same line "Joker" famously said to Murray Franklin, "You get what you f**king deserve.

Yep. There's disappointment and confusion circulating about who the 'real Joker' is. Some viewers are adamant the inmate who stabs Arthur was actually the Joker all this time because he begins laughing and carves his own face. To me that's nothing more than Arthur's legacy, which wasn't originally intended - he was acting independently in the first movie, as he says "do I look like the kind of clown that could start a movement?" To me, The Joker of this series is both a real man and an idea. Arthur took on the title, abandoned it, then the followers sought to preserve the spirit of Arthur's original appearance on Murray Franklin. Arthur did take on the moniker first. He put on makeup and dyed his hair green. He had various traits of the comic character, namely suicidal ideation, off color jokes, extreme thinness, killing people on television, etc. He had his own version of Harley albeit with a twist to their relationship. The point is that NOBODY can live up to the shadow of what it all stands for, not even Arthur's killer who carved himself a smile. In this more real setting he's staying locked up in jail and probably getting a death sentence too. A point is that people only see the anarchy and not the mentally troubled man behind it all.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 10 Oct  2024, 23:43Right. Lee was not dissimilar to particular women who wind up having a thing for serial killers (probably even more so if they are fairly 'high profile'). As there is assuredly an element of infamous illustriousness that they find attractive given the reputation. I doubt Lee in this universe ever really did anything interesting with her life, but she was able to pull strings and get close to Arthur in the hopes of getting a "show". Much like the Joker followers in the film. Arthur, as "Joker" was a willing participant in being the showman, until the fantasy was no longer gratifying any longer. And that's all they really had. The fantasy. 

Interesting comparisons to Ted Bundy in the movie too. He got rid of his defence team, represented himself and had a delusional female (Carole) strongly fighting his case. The difference is that she believed Ted was innocent. Lee liked Arthur for his killing. When Bundy admitted to being a murderer in his last days (mainly as a last ditch tactic) Carole stopped talking and wanted nothing to do with him. Her delusion was over. In contrast, Lee walked away too but her warped mindset continued. They both loved the man on the stands for who they thought them to be.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 11 Oct  2024, 08:42Yep. There's disappointment and confusion circulating about who the 'real Joker' is. Some viewers are adamant the inmate who stabs Arthur was actually the Joker all this time because he begins laughing and carves his own face. To me that's nothing more than Arthur's legacy, which wasn't originally intended - he was acting independently in the first movie, as he says "do I look like the kind of clown that could start a movement?" To me, The Joker of this series is both a real man and an idea. Arthur took on the title, abandoned it, then the followers sought to preserve the spirit of Arthur's original appearance on Murray Franklin. Arthur did take on the moniker first. He put on makeup and dyed his hair green. He had various traits of the comic character, namely suicidal ideation, off color jokes, extreme thinness, killing people on television, etc. He had his own version of Harley albeit with a twist to their relationship. The point is that NOBODY can live up to the shadow of what it all stands for, not even Arthur's killer who carved himself a smile. In this more real setting he's staying locked up in jail and probably getting a death sentence too. A point is that people only see the anarchy and not the mentally troubled man behind it all.

That's exactly how I see it as well. I've seen videos and read theories about the guy being the *real* Joker, or even Ledger's Joker (which I can't wrap my brain around, but I also remember people thinking "Batman Begins" was a prequel to "Batman 1989", and I just never understood how that possibly works or even makes sense?), but nah. In this iteration, Fleck is the original and defacto Joker. It's just his persona/shadow eventually swallows up the man behind the Joker alter ego, and who's 'shadow' simply looms large, and will continue to loom large, long past the innovator himself.   

QuoteInteresting comparisons to Ted Bundy in the movie too. He got rid of his defence team, represented himself and had a delusional female (Carole) strongly fighting his case. The difference is that she believed Ted was innocent. Lee liked Arthur for his killing. When Bundy admitted to being a murderer in his last days (mainly as a last ditch tactic) Carole stopped talking and wanted nothing to do with him. Her delusion was over. In contrast, Lee walked away too but her warped mindset continued. They both loved the man on the stands for who they thought them to be.

QFT. We already are aware of the Gacy/Pogo connections with Phillips' iteration of the Joker, and I also have no problem envisioning there being a blatant Ted Bundy influence. Especially considering Bundy is probably considered one of the more charismatic when considering high profile serial killers.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the spoiler thread. So, I don't really see much of a point in masking spoiler info. If you're trying to avoid that, go someplace else.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  4 Oct  2024, 05:33It's a real deal sequel and a good one. It's undeserving of the strong hate and it seems a lot of people are buying into that without actually seeing it themselves. Or not approaching it from the right perspective when they do. They are way too hung up on 'who is the real Joker' and the ending. The crux of the movie is the cult of celebrity worship and the pressure of expectation.

IMO Arthur is absolutely the Joker of this universe regardless if we want to take that road, it's just that the legend outgrew him and took on a life of its own. I don't think he wanted to create a movement but he nonetheless was at the centre of it. Joker is mostly a construct in Arthur's mind for escapism, and a fantasy the followers fell in love with. It took too much of a toll on the real man behind it. When he gave them what they wanted he took the full brunt, especially away from the cameras. It didn't benefit him personally in the long term.

Philips and Phoenix should be getting praise - segments of the audience rejecting Arthur is proving the film's point. I love this movie the more I think about it. It's a different look at the character and I'm glad it exists.

Once more, I never needed this film to exist. I was perfectly content for the original JOKER to be a one-and-done triumph. But a $1 billion box office has a funny way of making people reconsider the idea of sequels that seemed unnecessary.

No, this movie does not stack up to the original. Not for me anyway.

But having said that, I do like the idea of the Joker struggling to live up to his own legend. I do see that as a reasonable interpretation of the character. Hell, post-A Death In The Family, there was an arc in the comics where the Joker truly was afraid of himself.

Plus, my interpretation of the Joker is that deep down inside, he knows he's a wannabe showman who isn't as funny or as clever as he pretends. There's a reason his trademark is murder rather than punchlines.

On that basis JFAD shows us a Joker who is living that struggle out a lot more openly. Is he Arthur, the loser? Or the Joker, the icon?

Depending on how you want to bend the spoons, you could see Arthur's struggle in the film, esp the pivotal "it was me" moment in the courtroom as his Come To Jesus moment, his last attempt to be accepted for who he truly sees himself to be rather than the monster he has occasionally transformed into.

Sadly, even the only "true love" he's ever experienced wants nothing to do with Arthur The Man and everything to do with Joker The Murdering Celebrity. Lee doesn't actually care about Arthur the man.

And in a way, Arthur really only has himself to blame. His attorney laid it all out for him. She told him exactly what Lee's agenda is. But Arthur made the wrong choice anyway.

It wouldn't have changed the jury's verdict, of course. But at least Arthur would've been found guilty of being a murderer rather than being found guilty for trying and failing to be something other than himself.

If I didn't need a second film, I certainly don't need a third one. But if a third one does somehow get made, then a film where Arthur finally learns his lesson and becomes the Joker as much because it's own dark side as well as because it's only refuge could be fascinating.

A third film seems highly unlikely at this point. Especially if you take the final shot of the movie purely at face value. Still, I don't think this was entirely a waste of time. Granted, I've only seen the movie once. But it looks like the creators all had their hearts in the right place and the fandom menace contingent are overreacting.

Or maybe I'm underreacting?

Time will tell.

Unfortunately, I don't really foresee that many people changing their minds about Joker 2.

I can understand someone's viewpoint in that this sequel didn't really need to exist, but at the same time, I seem to recall that very same opinion often being reciprocated when it was initially announced that a Joker "Origin" movie was green lighted many years ago. Same holds true with the notion of a solo "Venom" movie as well. The sequel didn't need to exist, and apparently the 1st film didn't need to exist either. Until it was seen/successful.

In some ways, I was admittedly kinda surprised that "Joker (2019)" received such a warm reception since it was primarily dealing with elaborating on the Joker character and having a background and origin. Especially given that Post-The Dark Knight in 2008, the parroting of the The Killing Joke quote; "If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" was constantly referred to ad nauseam. Especially in comparing Ledger to previous cinematic incarnations. However, "The Killing Joke" was published in 1988. At that point, the Joker character had existed for nearly 50 years. So what was his background? He was a mysterious criminal mastermind known as "The Red Hood" who dove into a vat of chemicals to evade capture, and emerged disfigured with chalk white skin, and his hair bleached green. As per co-creator Bill Finger. As far as I know, this had no push back from subsequent writers/editors throughout the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's and 1980's, and to Alan Moore's credit, he also didn't really want to tamper with too much when writing "The Killing Joke" as the Red Hood criminal mastermind background for the Joker was accepted and understood. Personally, I like "The Killing Joke" as much as the next guy, but I think it's undoubtedly lifted up by Brian Bolland's amazing artwork than the story itself to be perfectly honest.

"Joker (2019)" certainly had it's share of influences from TKJ, but I could never really and truly see Arthur ever becoming a live action facsimile of the comic book Joker given the influences from TKJ failed comedian background choice with the depiction (I still have nitpicks with the failed comedian background and being bullied into the Red Hood guise that TKJ highlighted but whatever), and realism the film was going for. There's nothing wrong with that either, and Phoenix proved to be a very worthwhile addition to outstanding cinematic Jokers that we've seen thus far.

Personally, my latitude with the sequel that seemingly everyone hates (except for myself, TDK, and perhaps a handful of other people! haha), is that there was never a franchise here. I am not really a fan of "subverting expectations" or taking big wild swings when it concerns formulaic franchises with entrenched fan expectations, but with Joker 2? I had none. It wasn't envisioned as a franchise, and it wasn't going to continue on as one either (atypical these days). Under that context, the news of it being something of a "musical", and statements from both Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix of wanting to do something that also brought the fear of failing in order to make it interesting, pretty much gave a intuitive indication that we were not going to get a by-the-numbers follow up.

I get the hate/dissatisfaction that Joker 2 has received, but at the same time, I'm very glad it exists.

 

Quote from: The Joker on Sun, 20 Oct  2024, 01:41Personally, my latitude with the sequel that seemingly everyone hates (except for myself, TDK, and perhaps a handful of other people! haha), is that there was never a franchise here. I am not really a fan of "subverting expectations" or taking big wild swings when it concerns formulaic franchises with entrenched fan expectations, but with Joker 2? I had none. It wasn't envisioned as a franchise, and it wasn't going to continue on as one either (atypical these days). Under that context, the news of it being something of a "musical", and statements from both Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix of wanting to do something that also brought the fear of failing in order to make it interesting, pretty much gave a intuitive indication that we were not going to get a by-the-numbers follow up.

I get the hate/dissatisfaction that Joker 2 has received, but at the same time, I'm very glad it exists.

 

I'm glad it exists too. The critical and financial response is disappointing of course, but that overwhelming negativity doesn't embarrass me to comply with the established narrative. Thinking more about it, I think Folie A Deux has a lot in common with the spirit of Last Action Hero. A fictional character stepping out of the big screen and into the real world. What happened after the events of the first movie is perfectly logical from that perspective. He killed, he was jailed, he went to court and then died. The movie people wanted (Joker breaking out, killing more people, eluding capture) was never going to happen in this construct. Arthur's life was always a tragedy. The way it ends up rings true to me. It feels nice and contained, and full circle.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 20 Oct  2024, 04:18I'm glad it exists too. The critical and financial response is disappointing of course, but that overwhelming negativity doesn't embarrass me to comply with the established narrative. Thinking more about it, I think Folie A Deux has a lot in common with the spirit of Last Action Hero. A fictional character stepping out of the big screen and into the real world. What happened after the events of the first movie is perfectly logical from that perspective. He killed, he was jailed, he went to court and then died. The movie people wanted (Joker breaking out, killing more people, eluding capture) was never going to happen in this construct. Arthur's life was always a tragedy. The way it ends up rings true to me. It feels nice and contained, and full circle.

I like that juxtaposition, and I believe it's a very adept observation with how Phillips and Phoenix approached the notion of a sequel. Where the comic book Joker could be perfectly sane but is just simply pleading insane, while playing the "role" of the Joker as a smokescreen of sorts. Leaving people to assume that he is, in fact, insane. Thus, in the grand scheme, making a absolute mockery of the justice system ("Case Study" by Paul Dini and Alex Ross ... highly recommended for anyone unfamiliar with this story).

I know, not particularly difficult to do these days.

Arthur on the other hand, as depicted in Joker 1 and 2, clearly falls under the umbrella of someone who suffers from mental illness and does need help, but is not afforded that same luxury. Nope. He's tried in court, and is harshly sentenced to the electric chair. He attempts to try the Joker persona as a smokescreen for his followers who want a show, but ultimately Arthur gets tapped out having to perform by several factors (the testimony from his former colleague Gary Puddles being a major one), and he's reduced to being a 'disappointment' by those that revered him just as it played out between Arthur and Murray Franklin.

There's a symmetry in the storytelling of Joker 1 and 2 that goes beyond the click bait narrative of, "It was made to just own the chudsz! Dur-Hur-Hur!!1!".

But, it is what it is.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GZIzohqXIAA-xMg?format=jpg&name=900x900)