https://youtu.be/Q8qwUbYxFRQ?t=722
Overall a fun interview with BTAS director Dan Riba but this part I never knew!
"These were untested guys (Bruce Timm and co.)...so they sent the materials to Tim Burton and he said "These can do it, they can absolutely do it"
I know the show was a sort-of spin-off of the films but I didn't realize Tim had some sort of say. What sort of involvement did he have/suppose to have?
But kudos to him for having the faith in Timm and co.
Link?
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 19 Jul 2020, 17:36
Link?
My bad, I thought I included it already but I must have forgotten. Updated the original post
Going by what Dan Riba is saying, the BTAS Penguin had a strong resemblance to DeVito because it was out of gratitude for Tim Burton's encouragement and support. In turn, Riba saw the BTAS Penguin design as supporting BR, as a way to say thanks to Burton for supporting the show.
Burton's filmmaking background lies in animation, and his expertise enabled him to recognise great talent. People can say whatever they want about Burton, but there is no doubt in my mind that Batman across all media would've been a lot poorer if he never got involved in the first place. A true pioneer.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 03:34
Going by what Dan Riba is saying, the BTAS Penguin had a strong resemblance to DeVito because it was out of gratitude for Tim Burton's encouragement and support. In turn, Riba saw the BTAS Penguin design as supporting BR, as a way to say thanks to Burton for supporting the show.
Burton's filmmaking background lies in animation, and his expertise enabled him to recognise great talent. People can say whatever they want about Burton, but there is no doubt in my mind that Batman across all media would've been a lot poorer if he never got involved in the first place. A true pioneer.
Burtons controbution to the franchise really doesnt get the attention it desirves, espshally since, while there are people who dont care for his batman, he had the faith in Bruce Timm and Co. to create what most people think is the definitive Batman.
Now I wonder if using the 89 theme in some of the episodes was a thank-you/homage to Burton/Elfman (Shirly walker) than more so for a tie-in since Elfmans' TAS theme wasnt a rehash of the 89 theme but somthing a bit different.
I don't think people are aware of how many Batman related things originated in the 89 film. Every time I see those "Things you didn't know about Batman 89" videos they never mention how this invented the grapple gun for example.
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 14:44
Burtons controbution to the franchise really doesnt get the attention it desirves, espshally since, while there are people who dont care for his batman, he had the faith in Bruce Timm and Co. to create what most people think is the definitive Batman.
Revisionists can try to rewrite history all they want. But once again, Tim Burton is the real MVP when it comes to Batman on film and animation.
Dan Riba isn't the only one from the show who recognises Burton's impact. I was watching The Heart of Batman documentary on YouTube earlier this week, which is a look back at the creation of BTAS and its legacy. Everyone who worked in the animation industry lamented that for many years, cartoons in general were cheap in quality and were made by committee.
Until a revolution came in the mid-to-late eighties, from Frank Miller to Tim Burton. As you can see on 19:40 minutes of the documentary which I linked below, film producer Michael Uslan and art director Glen Murakami described B89's importance, with Uslan saying that film and BTAS were leading the way in comic book-related entertainment in the early nineties, and you couldn't speak about one without mentioning the other.
On 23:36, it was revealed that BTAS co-creator Eric Radomski was a huge fan of B89, and took inspiration of the look and atmosphere from the film to draw concept art for BTAS. According to Bruce Timm, B89 was the reason why Radomski wanted to work on BTAS in the first place.
https://youtu.be/dZLpDvQ6vFI
Even Timm and Paul Dini acknowledged Burton's importance. In the DVD commentary for House and Garden, Timm admitted the show would never have gotten made had it not been for B89 and the studios wanting to capitalise on that success. Un Dini's autobiographical comic Dark Night: A True Batman Story, he recounted the time he watched the film when it first came out and described it as "reinvented Batman as the dark, brooding character he had been in the comics. It proved people could take the character seriously again".
This goes to show that even without Burton's approval, his work was appreciated among the creators of the show and they wanted to replicate that vision in some way. It's a testament to Burton's work that his vision is well-regarded - even emulated in some respects - and it spawned such a beloved show to this day.
Take that, revisionists.
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 14:44
Now I wonder if using the 89 theme in some of the episodes was a thank-you/homage to Burton/Elfman (Shirly walker) than more so for a tie-in since Elfmans' TAS theme wasnt a rehash of the 89 theme but somthing a bit different.
In the past, I used to wonder if the those Easter eggs were studio-mandated. But now I'm more convinced those instances were paying tribute to Burton more than ever.
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 16:10
I don't think people are aware of how many Batman related things originated in the 89 film. Every time I see those "Things you didn't know about Batman 89" videos they never mention how this invented the grapple gun for example.
I believe they're being willfully ignorant. Even Keaton doesn't get enough recognition for using two distinctive voices as Bruce Wayne and Batman. I love Conroy as everybody else, but most people pretend he was the one who started that approach to the character.
Now to be fair, while Conroy isn't exactly the first actor to speak in different voices as the main character, you can definitely say that he is the first voice actor to play Bruce Wayne as a certain type of
facade (i.e. sounding pompous or charismatic whenever he's out in public) and Batman's voice as the real identity. Keaton's Bruce, in contrast, is more introverted and prefers to speak as little as possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwNWZUBCTK0
It's too bad that Conroy's Batman voice got rather lighter over time, both on TV and in games. I suppose his age got the better of his voice.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 12:30
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 16:10
I don't think people are aware of how many Batman related things originated in the 89 film. Every time I see those "Things you didn't know about Batman 89" videos they never mention how this invented the grapple gun for example.
I believe they're being willfully ignorant. Even Keaton doesn't get enough recognition for using two distinctive voices as Bruce Wayne and Batman. I love Conroy as everybody else, but most people pretend he was the one who started that approach to the character.
Now to be fair, while Conroy isn't exactly the first actor to speak in different voices as the main character, you can definitely say that he is the first voice actor to play Bruce Wayne as a certain type of facade (i.e. sounding pompous or charismatic whenever he's out in public) and Batman's voice as the real identity. Keaton's Bruce, in contrast, is more introverted and prefers to speak as little as possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwNWZUBCTK0
It's too bad that Conroy's Batman voice got rather lighter over time, both on TV and in games. I suppose his age got the better of his voice.
All of this.
People point back to Adam West sometimes and say he used the same voice for Batman and Bruce. That's not really true but I understand why people say that.
The difference with Keaton's voices, though, has always been pretty impressive. And maybe the best example of it is in BR where Bruce has a moment in the Batcave with Alfred going through microfiche while using a normal conversational voice and in the very next scene he cruises Gotham City in the Batmobile while talking to Alfred in his Batman voice. It's a great moment in the movie and it really says a lot about how powerful the identity change really is. I love that Burton didn't dwell on that moment very much but the contrast is pretty sharp.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 12:36
The difference with Keaton's voices, though, has always been pretty impressive. And maybe the best example of it is in BR where Bruce has a moment in the Batcave with Alfred going through microfiche while using a normal conversational voice and in the very next scene he cruises Gotham City in the Batmobile while talking to Alfred in his Batman voice. It's a great moment in the movie and it really says a lot about how powerful the identity change really is. I love that Burton didn't dwell on that moment very much but the contrast is pretty sharp.
If there was one thing that Keaton improved upon for Returns it was the voice. It sounds like he had a better handle on it the second time around.
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Wed, 29 Jul 2020, 02:46
If there was one thing that Keaton improved upon for Returns it was the voice. It sounds like he had a better handle on it the second time around.
You reckon? I thought his voice sounded fine in both films. Personally, I even prefer how he speaks in B89 only because he had more lines where he came across as chilling when it was appropriate e.g. when he spoke to Vicki in the Batcave and how he confronted the Joker - "I made you...you made me first".
Anyway, I see Dan Riba laughing with the hosts about the scene he storyboarded in MOTP, where Bruce draws a smile on the photo of the Valestra mob hitman and realises he is the Joker. But I think that scene is brilliant! Sure, the concept might sound ridiculous, but as far as animation goes, it works so well. It goes to show that cartoons are the perfect medium for that sort of simplistic, yet creative plot twist. The exaggerated character design of the Joker allows the drawing on the picture to make sense.
The only thing that bothered me in that scene was the fact he used a color pencil on a photo paper lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU3ng-vbCFU
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 5 Dec 2020, 13:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU3ng-vbCFU
Very insightful. I never connected the lack of origin stories for the Joker, Penguin and Catwoman with Burton's own creative decisions. Seems kind of obvious, looking back at it now.
Somewhere along the line, I got the idea that Bruce Timm just full-stop didn't like the Burton films so the clarification there was instructive.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 17:48
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 5 Dec 2020, 13:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU3ng-vbCFU
Very insightful. I never connected the lack of origin stories for the Joker, Penguin and Catwoman with Burton's own creative decisions. Seems kind of obvious, looking back at it now.
Somewhere along the line, I got the idea that Bruce Timm just full-stop didn't like the Burton films so the clarification there was instructive.
I'm not sure if Timm is a fan of any of the live action Batman's. I got the idea that he didn't like Returns hence the Penguin's design change in the revamp. However, I didn't know that he didn't care for the 89 film as a whole.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 17:48
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 5 Dec 2020, 13:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU3ng-vbCFU
Very insightful. I never connected the lack of origin stories for the Joker, Penguin and Catwoman with Burton's own creative decisions. Seems kind of obvious, looking back at it now.
Somewhere along the line, I got the idea that Bruce Timm just full-stop didn't like the Burton films so the clarification there was instructive.
I would also say that I would be interested in this guy's thoughts on Schumacher's influence on TNBA
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 19:50
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 17:48
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 5 Dec 2020, 13:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU3ng-vbCFU
Very insightful. I never connected the lack of origin stories for the Joker, Penguin and Catwoman with Burton's own creative decisions. Seems kind of obvious, looking back at it now.
Somewhere along the line, I got the idea that Bruce Timm just full-stop didn't like the Burton films so the clarification there was instructive.
I would also say that I would be interested in this guy's thoughts on Schumacher's influence on TNBA
What influence? Aside from them poking fun at Schumacher in Legends of the Dark Knight, I don't see much influence.
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 20:14
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 19:50
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 17:48
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 5 Dec 2020, 13:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU3ng-vbCFU
Very insightful. I never connected the lack of origin stories for the Joker, Penguin and Catwoman with Burton's own creative decisions. Seems kind of obvious, looking back at it now.
Somewhere along the line, I got the idea that Bruce Timm just full-stop didn't like the Burton films so the clarification there was instructive.
I would also say that I would be interested in this guy's thoughts on Schumacher's influence on TNBA
What influence? Aside from them poking fun at Schumacher in Legends of the Dark Knight, I don't see much influence.
The inclusion of Batgirl in every episode, a heavier emphasis on costumed supervillains in garish costumes, an overall lighter and more kid-friendly tone, more colorful character and set designs, more
larger than life setpieces (instead of showdowns in yet another dark warehouse) and the other things never raised any questions for you?
Interesting.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 21:21
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 20:14
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 19:50
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 6 Dec 2020, 17:48
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 5 Dec 2020, 13:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU3ng-vbCFU
Very insightful. I never connected the lack of origin stories for the Joker, Penguin and Catwoman with Burton's own creative decisions. Seems kind of obvious, looking back at it now.
Somewhere along the line, I got the idea that Bruce Timm just full-stop didn't like the Burton films so the clarification there was instructive.
I would also say that I would be interested in this guy's thoughts on Schumacher's influence on TNBA
What influence? Aside from them poking fun at Schumacher in Legends of the Dark Knight, I don't see much influence.
The inclusion of Batgirl in every episode, a heavier emphasis on costumed supervillains in garish costumes, an overall lighter and more kid-friendly tone, more colorful character and set designs, more larger than life setpieces (instead of showdowns in yet another dark warehouse) and the other things never raised any questions for you?
Interesting.
Not really. The Batgirl thing didn't feel put on just because the character was introduced in the previous series/season which I believe was before the Schumacher films. The New Batman Adventures is weird in that it is simultaneously more brutal and more cartoony. The action is more intense with blood and some episodes like Mad Love and Over the Edge are some of the darkest episodes of the entire series, but then you'll also get something like the Farmer Brown episode.
The Burton aesthetic was transferred, but BTAS being more 'balanced' in contrast to BR doesn't rub me the wrong way. BTAS is very much more of a B89 inspired show in terms of tone and style, and they essentially use B89's Joker origin in Mask of the Phantasm. The Burton films were the platform to make it all possible, even if members of the creative team had other preferences.
I'm focusing on Conroy's voice again, because I saw this Reddit user calling him a terrible Batman. Not just overrated, but terrible.
https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/comments/o9o503/kevin_conroy_is_a_terrible_batman/
Aside from him pointing out how most people keep ignoring that Keaton was the first actor to use distinctive voices as Bruce and Batman, I completely disagree with the rest of this poster's perspective.
Now, I can understand the argument if people said Conroy reached his peak with BTAS. I can even see the argument that some people feel Conroy has been phoning it for most of the time ever since the show ended.
But I can't ever agree with the opinion of Conroy was never good in the role. The same can be said about BTAS not being any good and the other voice actors he criticises. I do find it odd in another post he mentions how he thought Two-Face's obsessions with duality was cringeworthy as somebody who grew on the Arkham games, despite the fact that Two-Face was obsessed with duality in those games as well.
Here are more comments by Paul Dini on B89's influence on the show.
Quote
Do you think we would've seen the same tone and style to Batman: The Animated Series if it wasn't for Tim Burton's Batman movie in 1989?
It's interesting. I think things would've definitely been different. I think Tim's movie really changed, in a very positive way, the perception of Batman. Up until his movie, even when they'd seen trailers for the coming movie with Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson, I think 80% of the audience were expecting at some point to hear the Batman theme from the '60s show or to see call-backs to it or for it to have some sort of goofy element from the series. I don't think they were expecting Tim to make a really serious movie about Batman, and I think that because it was cool and it was dark and it was very much his artistic vision – and yet very true to the comics at that time – I think that a lot of people embraced it as almost something new. And we did have to step up in a way. We had to repeat what Tim had done, but also, "Okay, he had his chance to do his vision of Batman – here's ours! We hope you accept it as a true vision." And they did. I think the two coexisted very comfortably together, and I do think that the fact that he had made that artistic statement worked well for us.
https://www.starburstmagazine.com/features/paul-dini-batman-animated-series
The mid-to-late Eighties and early Nineties era was a game-changer era for Batman. I reckon a lot of people don't quite fully understand this, especially among the younger generations.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 2 Apr 2022, 01:36The mid-to-late Eighties and early Nineties era was a game-changer era for Batman. I reckon a lot of people don't quite fully understand this, especially among the younger generations.
What I try telling them is that by the early Eighties, Batman comics had reached a sort of stagnant point where nobody seemed to rly know what to do with the character anymore. Miller, Moore and others solved for that in the comics, Burton did something similar in film and the BTAS guy did the same in animation.
Batman media from, oh, maybe 1986 to 1992 was an amazing 1-2-3 punch of creative energy that I don't think the character had ever experienced before or since.
These Dang Kids Today can't be expected to understand how important those six years were until you sit them down and kick some science on them. I understand that veteran fans who have been around for decades are probably fed up with hearing about how important B89, TDKR and BTAS were in their time. But it's important that younger fans understand how pivotal all of those things truly were in terms of making Batman the icon that he is today.