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That is one of the best aspects of the movie. That is what makes the movie enjoyable to watch for me. The gothic surroundings of the movie are a Burton original and can NEVER be replicated. NO Batman will ever capture the darkness of Returns EVER again.

I love it.
That shot in the beginning showing the skyscrapers and then panning down on the Cobblepots wheeling their son's carriage through the park. Just beautiful.

i love the expressionism style of the movie and i believe that is darker because is the 2nd movie of a trilogy (like empire strikes back), what could be a Tim Burton trilogy

When B89 was released Tim said the following about a possible sequel (Returns)

"And the only thing to do is to make the sequel unbelievable, and take it to the next level - I think it must get weirder before it gets anything else. "

From here: http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/articles.php?showarticle=43

I prefere the feel of Batman.

But I do like Returns as well. Great sequel, like someone said above kind of like Empire Strikes back theme in the movie. Also like what TDK tried to capture.

The feel of Returns reminds me of the feel of Edward Scissorhands. Its very dark and very said, yet very surreal at the same time. And theres plenty of pathos for the characters. Plus, its best to view the movie in the winter, it gives it and additional kick I think

Quote from: GothamAlleys on Mon, 27 Sep  2010, 00:58
Plus, its best to view the movie in the winter, it gives it and additional kick I think

No doubt about it, it does aid the film's vibe. At night with the air conditioner on as low as it can go is an equally good substitute. Make sure you are shivering, too. Wear a t-shirt, shorts and no socks. Believe me, you'll be more emersed in the film. You will feel the atmosphere.

AND it needs to be dark outside

i can only watch it in the dark when its a little chilly. sometimes i'll have a cup of hot cocoa.

I kinda like it the other way, when its windy, dark and snowing outside the window, but warm and cozy inside - the best setting for watching BR!

I love Returns, the whole feel of it is just great, definitely a great Christmas Eve movie, that along with Die Hard and Die Hard 2, just described my Christmas Eve this year ;D

Nothing says Christmas better than a children killing deformed man from the sewers, a guy dressed as a bat and an S&M mistress  ;)

LOL  ;D

I agree, I love watching Batman Returns in winter, and around christmas!!

Quote from: GothamAlleys on Tue, 28 Sep  2010, 09:59
Nothing says Christmas better than a children killing deformed man from the sewers, a guy dressed as a bat and an S&M mistress  ;)

exactly

Posted the overlook on the blog already

Quote from: Paul (ral) on Tue,  2 Sep  2008, 08:06
When B89 was released Tim said the following about a possible sequel (Returns)

"And the only thing to do is to make the sequel unbelievable, and take it to the next level - I think it must get weirder before it gets anything else. "

From here: http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/articles.php?showarticle=43

And Burton said that at the time of B89's release???

As for the topic, this "eerie vibe" and the macabre style have always been my favorite things about BR (or Batman - the character - in general).

Quote from: SilentEnigma on Sun, 10 Oct  2010, 13:17
As for the topic, this "eerie vibe" and the macabre style have always been my favorite things about BR (or Batman - the character - in general).

Agreed. Minus Batman in the Nolan films and you basically have an episode of Law & Order. And the very existence of Batman in the real world utterly destroys the "realism" illusion anyway. What I like about Burton is that he employed a very stylized setting for Gotham City. It's natural to see Batman in a place like that because he fits in it. It feels like a place where you'd find Batman. Nolan's world is basically Chicago.

Nolan's Gotham in Begins was pretty good though I thought. But in terms of actual style and atmosphere nothing can beat Returns.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 24 Oct  2010, 09:31

Quote from: SilentEnigma on Sun, 10 Oct  2010, 13:17
As for the topic, this "eerie vibe" and the macabre style have always been my favorite things about BR (or Batman - the character - in general).

Nolan's world is basically Chicago.

While that's certainly true of DK, I'd suggest rewatching the BB scenes where Batman is in the narrows. The streets may not have the gothic architecture of '89 but they certainly are stylized enough to place the viewer in Gotham.

The monorail was also a nice element of fantasy that that they foolishly discarded in their second outing.

You ever notice how all of the directors kind of tone their angle down on their first film, and then go full bore with their personal style in their second?

Quote from: phantom stranger on Mon, 25 Oct  2010, 04:39While that's certainly true of DK, I'd suggest rewatching the BB scenes where Batman is in the narrows. The streets may not have the gothic architecture of '89 but they certainly are stylized enough to place the viewer in Gotham.

I agree with that. It's just that there isn't enough of it. It's one little section of the City.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 24 Oct  2010, 09:31

Quote from: SilentEnigma on Sun, 10 Oct  2010, 13:17
As for the topic, this "eerie vibe" and the macabre style have always been my favorite things about BR (or Batman - the character - in general).

Agreed. Minus Batman in the Nolan films and you basically have an episode of Law & Order. And the very existence of Batman in the real world utterly destroys the "realism" illusion anyway. What I like about Burton is that he employed a very stylized setting for Gotham City. It's natural to see Batman in a place like that because he fits in it. It feels like a place where you'd find Batman. Nolan's world is basically Chicago.

Paul Dini certainly agrees with you
Paul Dini: Tim Burton's vision was very over the top; a little bit Gothic but at the same time sort of like Fritz Lang's Metropolis. Christopher Nolan's Batman was very modern day; it almost got to the point where I was watching the movie and I was noticing landmarks as I'm a native of Chicago where it was shot. To some degree I don't think Batman works in a completely modern city; I think Gotham has be reflective of his personality and those of his enemies.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/6126146/Batman-Arkham-Asylum-interview-with-Paul-Dini.html

Paul Dini is correct.

A stormy night personifies Batman himself. Just as Superman's symbolism is being bathed in light. But stopping there is not enough. I believe the entire City has to reflect their different personalities. In Metropolis it's one way, in Gotham it's the exact opposite.

The blatant Chicago look is more in line with Superman, IMO. Gleaming towers of glass that look forward with hope and prosperity. Gotham should consist of dirty, gothic citadels and spires. Hell, Wayne Manor is literally a castle that overlooks the City. How fairy tale can you get?

It has to be a City in need of saving. But with Nolan's Gotham, it's pretty much a run-of-the-mill, business as usual City with one trouble spot. To me, that is not GOTHam City. Because that's not what we're getting. It's pretty much Gotham in name only.

I've always loved it and will, regardless of how other people feel about it. I must have watched it a bijilion times when I was a kid, so much so that now I can just "play" the thing inside my head.  ;D I just love how messy and chaotic the architecture of Gotham is, with all those Socrealist statues and Disney-like mascots on the Plaza.

And, having grown up in rather nasty times, I can confirm that Burton?s approach is the most realistic. The medieval urbanism of Gotham is something that?s symptomatic of most corrupt societies, so I never really got the whole "Batman?s story is supposed to take place in our world" mantra.

Yeah Chicago as it is isn't even a good stand in for Gotham. If they had to go super realistic New York or something nearby probably would have served better, because I've also always pictured Gotham as a bit of a New York, and therefore, a relatively coastal city. The wind in Chicago would be good for the flapping cape though, haha.

Thats right actually. Since Gotham was based of NY, and even Nolan;s Gotham is part Island, I dont see why they didnt pick NY. Probably filming costs/permits

Quote from: Batmoney on Sat, 30 Oct  2010, 01:25
Yeah Chicago as it is isn't even a good stand in for Gotham. If they had to go super realistic New York or something nearby probably would have served better, because I've also always pictured Gotham as a bit of a New York, and therefore, a relatively coastal city. The wind in Chicago would be good for the flapping cape though, haha.

I agree.  I always saw Gotham as the equivalent of New York, whereas Metropolis seems closer to Chicago.

Quote from: GothamAlleys on Mon,  1 Nov  2010, 23:08
Thats right actually. Since Gotham was based of NY, and even Nolan;s Gotham is part Island, I dont see why they didnt pick NY. Probably filming costs/permits

Well, I think Nolan always envisioned Gotham as Chicago. He's probably the only one that has that sentiment, but still...

Plus, Chicago can pass as any large urban city. I've never been there but from many scenes it looks no different than Houston or other similarly-large American cities. The only exception would be New York, which has a distinctive look unlike any other in the U.S.

Quote from: phantom stranger on Wed,  3 Nov  2010, 01:37

Quote from: GothamAlleys on Mon,  1 Nov  2010, 23:08
Thats right actually. Since Gotham was based of NY, and even Nolan;s Gotham is part Island, I dont see why they didnt pick NY. Probably filming costs/permits

Well, I think Nolan always envisioned Gotham as Chicago. He's probably the only one that has that sentiment, but still...

Plus, Chicago can pass as any large urban city. I've never been there but from many scenes it looks no different than Houston or other similarly-large American cities. The only exception would be New York, which has a distinctive look unlike any other in the U.S.

Thats true, although NYC does have places that look identical to the scenery in TDK. The "Hit me!" bat pod scene happened on a street that is almost a duplicate of one in NYC, down to the same looking building on the end

Anyway, I still prefer the bland Chicago over Schumacher's Barbie city

Maybe since nolan knew he was going to deal with terrorist stuff  in both he passed on nyc just to be safe?

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri,  5 Nov  2010, 06:54
Maybe since nolan knew he was going to deal with terrorist stuff  in both he passed on nyc just to be safe?

Doubt it. If Nolan wanted to shoot in NYC, he would've shot there.

I seem to remember Nolan saying in an interview that certain parts of Chicago reminded him of Gotham, that's why he chose it. :-\

Now, I?ll address the concept of Burton?s Gotham, but also touch upon the psyche Burton gave Batman. I read where some guy named Jett critiques what he calls ?A-hole Batman?. Here?s my take on that.

Bale?s Bruce states the following in a throwaway manner:

?A guy that dresses up as a bat clearly has issues.?

He of course is correct. But he himself is not a true believer of that, and he is not portrayed as that. He?s a sane action hero in SWAT getup.

Now, these quotes from Batman (1989) highlights how thing should be, in my opinion:

Vicki Vale: A lot of people think you're as dangerous as the Joker.
Batman: He's psychotic.
Vicki Vale: Some people say the same thing about you.
Batman: What people?
Vicki Vale: Well, I mean, let's face it. You're not exactly normal, are you?
Batman: It's not exactly a normal world, is it?

Firstly, Burton?s Gotham, the Gotham of the comics, is not a normal world. Nolan?s Chicago is. And therefore the idea of some bat suited guy walking around is silly. It sticks out like a sore thumb even if he tries to stay in the shadows. I mean, you don?t see this going on in Chicago or any other City for real, do you? It?s not a place that looks like that would take place.

Now, a gothic hell hole that has sprouted forth from the ground ? you?d fully expext gargoyles to come alive and walk at midnight. Batman is an extension of that.

Secondly, to dress up as a bat, you?d have to be pushed to the limit. That?s the final straw. To impersonate a bat, it?s behavior, habits and philosophy. Batarangs, batmobiles, etc. He is a force for good, but he has been tainted, if you will. I mean, he literally inspired evil aligned freaks to dress up and challenge him. Evidence enough.

Batman and the Joker are two sides of the same coin. And because of that, they have to have similarities. They were both driven to the brink. They just have different philosophies and actions. They don?t have a mutual connection for nothing.

By saying it?s not a normal world and not addressing his own self, he is also implying that indeed, what he is doing is not normal either. But he makes it normal, and to him it has become so ? and his reality. He?s got nothing to compare it to.

Bale?s Batman seems to be unaffected and balanced. And I don't buy that. I believe there has to be some form of cross-over.

Batman is the true personality, and that personality would surely dominate all else on his mind. If you vow to dress up as a bat, you are in consequence taking on a 24/7 commitment. You?re dark and mean when the sun goes down, and obsess, stress and investigate by day.

Even the most case hardened detectives burn out and become affected. Now that is realism. This is an individual, personal commitment. Nobody else truly understands what Bruce feels. And he can?t really communicate that fully to anyone bar Alfred. Being a distanced, silent loner is pretty much a given.

I just recently stumbled upon an interview with nolan in which he says that Gotham was always NY for him, so thats even more puzzling why they shot in Chicago

Quote from: GothamAlleys on Sat,  6 Nov  2010, 05:39
I just recently stumbled upon an interview with nolan in which he says that Gotham was always NY for him, so thats even more puzzling why they shot in Chicago

So he says one thing and does another? Bizarre.

If NYC is Gotham to him, anything else is second best, and not his true vision.

Heres exactly what he said

What we wound up doing, is that the way that we approached Gotham as an exaggeration of New York, an exaggeration of a modern American city was to look at interesting geographical features of different cities of the world. A lot from New York, some from Chicago, a lot from Tokyo because of elevated freeways and monorails.

http://movies.ign.com/articles/622/622719p1.html

Maybe my comment wasnt so far off after all ;)

Quote from: Catwoman on Sat,  6 Nov  2010, 09:19
Maybe my comment wasnt so far off after all ;)

I don't see how.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 28 Sep  2010, 01:43

Quote from: GothamAlleys on Mon, 27 Sep  2010, 00:58
Plus, its best to view the movie in the winter, it gives it and additional kick I think

No doubt about it, it does aid the film's vibe. At night with the air conditioner on as low as it can go is an equally good substitute. Make sure you are shivering, too. Wear a t-shirt, shorts and no socks. Believe me, you'll be more emersed in the film. You will feel the atmosphere.

man, you could not of hit the nail on the head any more!!! ;D

Returns is the only film in the world that makes me completely zone out into my own little world each time i watch it. i dont think ill ever get the same feeling from watching a film again, its got to be my favourite of all time!!

Quote from: dale01 on Tue,  9 Nov  2010, 00:48
Returns is the only film in the world that makes me completely zone out into my own little world each time i watch it. i dont think ill ever get the same feeling from watching a film again, its got to be my favourite of all time!!

The only other film I can become immersed in (apart from B89) is the original Jurassic Park. Might be because I watched it religiously as a child, but to me, that has lots of atmosphere. Tropical storms: rain pelting down, hearing dinosaur noises but not seeing them. I have a great deal of respect for The Lost World - and think it gets close to that vibe. But the original is a master class of tone setting and atmosphere. And it's very hard to replicate that.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  6 Nov  2010, 07:09

Quote from: GothamAlleys on Sat,  6 Nov  2010, 05:39
I just recently stumbled upon an interview with nolan in which he says that Gotham was always NY for him, so thats even more puzzling why they shot in Chicago

So he says one thing and does another? Bizarre.

If NYC is Gotham to him, anything else is second best, and not his true vision.

Just found his reason for setting in Chicago

Why is Chicago, not New York, your Gotham?
Well, I grew up partly in Chicago. And when Nathan Crowley, my production designer, first set up here in my garage, putting together composites of what Gotham might be, we started imagining a city with all these layers, with bridges and subterranean streets and tall skyscrapers. And at a certain point I said to him, "I know where this is. This is Chicago."

http://www.newsweek.com/2008/07/11/bat-trick.html

The dark vibe is great.  It is Noir, which is Expressionism.  I just did a class paper on both.

yay the penguin girl is back.

All the Batman films (except Nolan's, which is far too realistic in this aspect, imo) make me somehow escape my own little world, but the gritty, dark world of Burton's is the only Bat-world I find myself *wanting* to escape to.  While probably less depressing, Schumacher's Gothams are a little too "neon" for my taste.

The Nolan series doesn?t spark my imagination in the same way as Burton. With Nolan, what you see is what you get. Nothing is left to the mind. It?s all hammered out in dialogue.

If you want to escape into Batman's world in a modern context, play Arkham Asylum. Because you won't get that experience with Nolan. Rocksteady showed the world how it is done.

Christmas is coming, this article (published yesterday) is definitely a good read.

it also creates seasonal depression.

some poor sap right at the holidays: oh, it's christmastime. i'm going to watch something nice and fun. oh, here's a batman movie *pops in batman returns*

two hours later, same poor sap: hello, is this the suicide prevention hotline?

lol.

that was an amazing read. thanks unsilentenigma.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  5 Nov  2010, 14:35


Firstly, Burton?s Gotham, the Gotham of the comics, is not a normal world. Nolan?s Chicago is. And therefore the idea of some bat suited guy walking around is silly. It sticks out like a sore thumb even if he tries to stay in the shadows. I mean, you don?t see this going on in Chicago or any other City for real, do you? It?s not a place that looks like that would take place.

this is why i find myself constantly liking the nolan trilogy less and less and less. it's all....wrong. it isn't batman.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri,  6 Dec  2013, 17:16
it also creates seasonal depression.

Good point. Mainly because at Christmastime, it's about family. Bruce lives alone in a big, dark mansion with his elderly butler. There are undoubtedly people out in the world seeking happiness, but it eludes them. Bruce sought this in Selina, but it wasn't to be. At the end of the night, he has nothing else to hold onto except "merry Christmas Alfred."  Though still bearing no ill will to others.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  7 Dec  2013, 14:14

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri,  6 Dec  2013, 17:16
it also creates seasonal depression.

Good point. Mainly because at Christmastime, it's about family. Bruce lives alone in a big, dark mansion with his elderly butler. There are undoubtedly people out in the world seeking happiness, but it eludes them. Bruce sought this in Selina, but it wasn't to be. At the end of the night, he has nothing else to hold onto except "merry Christmas Alfred."  Though still bearing no ill will to others.

At least he's got Alfred, his surrogate father.  Some people have got no one.  He should stop behaving like a spoiled rich kid and count himself lucky.  At least he's got a roof over his head and a roaring fire to keep himself warm.  If he wasn't feeling sorry for himself all the time he could easily find a girlfriend to share his life with.

QuoteAt least he's got Alfred, his surrogate father.  Some people have got no one.  He should stop behaving like a spoiled rich kid and count himself lucky.  At least he's got a roof over his head and a roaring fire to keep himself warm.  If he wasn't feeling sorry for himself all the time he could easily find a girlfriend to share his life with.

I agree which is why i love batman forever for making bruce be more happy with the life he has & stops feeling sorry for himself despite not getting chase at the end of the film but hey at least he still has alfred & dick his surrogate father & adopted son & it's the closet to having a family again right?

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sat,  7 Dec  2013, 14:44

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  7 Dec  2013, 14:14

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri,  6 Dec  2013, 17:16
it also creates seasonal depression.

Good point. Mainly because at Christmastime, it's about family. Bruce lives alone in a big, dark mansion with his elderly butler. There are undoubtedly people out in the world seeking happiness, but it eludes them. Bruce sought this in Selina, but it wasn't to be. At the end of the night, he has nothing else to hold onto except "merry Christmas Alfred."  Though still bearing no ill will to others.

At least he's got Alfred, his surrogate father.  Some people have got no one.  He should stop behaving like a spoiled rich kid and count himself lucky.  At least he's got a roof over his head and a roaring fire to keep himself warm.  If he wasn't feeling sorry for himself all the time he could easily find a girlfriend to share his life with.

wow that is way unfair to our bats. spoiled rich kid? seriously? if i got a million vibes off keaton's batman that wasn't one of them. he was depressed. doesn't matter how much cash one has in their life. money doesn't buy happiness contrary to popular belief (it can help though lol). the poorest can be the happiest and the richest (especially those who watched their parents be murdered at 8 years old) can be the saddest. bruce (at least mikey's version) seems way too deep for just any girl too. he isn't plug and play like most men (ugh) so it isn't like repairing his loneliness is a matter of just going out, pointing to some girl, and saying "you're with me baby. get in the rolls."

and feeling sorry for himself? um, HELLO. his parents were murdered right in front of him when he was EIGHT YEARS OLD. if someone who sees their parents MURDERED when they are EIGHT and they aren't mr. happy go lucky, that isn't being sorry for themselves.

the vibe i got off bruce is that he would have been fine with a two-room shack as long as alfred was with him and enough money for them to live on and to continue being batman. it was never stated because tim didn't feel the need to spill everything for us and hold our hand through the entire movies but i bet he stayed there simply because it was his parents home and he felt close to them by being there. otherwise he would have left in a heartbeat.

i'll get off my soapbox now but holy crap dude!