Ok, so, I finished The Dark Knight Returns (badass freaking comic btw!) and all through it there is a debate going on about whether or not Batman is the reason for all the villains (I know that's been around like as long as he has but this is the most constant I've seen it in any comic or anything else). Like, basically, did they come about because of him? And I have to say as I was reading and thinking about it the argument that he did was kind of compelling.
So I asked myself, for instance, would Edward Nygma have put on a Question Mark costume and become the Riddler if not for Batman's costumed antics and the attention he got? And I'm struggling to come up with an answer so I wanted yalls opinions. I don't mean by what was actually in the comics, I mean in a hypothetical and psychological and everything else kind of sense lol.
For me it like goes both ways and splits off in a bunch of directions. Someone like the Joker would have murdered a lot of people even without falling in a vat of chemicals and turning into Lucifer with a smile, sure (unless you believe his story about his origin and who he was before which he says himself is probably bullsh*t) but some of the others, it's like a legit question. I guess the best answer I can come up with is most of them would have broken the law and done wrong without him, but the scale and theatrics very well could be because of him. Idk. I'm torn and looking for other opinions so I will shut the hell up and give yall the floor lol.
So much for starting an insightful discussion...sigh.
Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 7 May 2015, 11:21
So much for starting an insightful discussion...sigh.
Oh yeah? How about this:
If I remember correctly, there was a part in The Long Halloween where Gordon mentioned that none of the crazy villains existed before Batman became known, which made Batman feel guilty.
Let's not forget in the Arkham games too. If you hear one of the Riddler's patient interview tapes, he starts telling Dr. Young his crazy conspiracy theory that Batman profits from all the villains he defeats. And of course in Arkham City, Hugo Strange taunts Batman while wiping out the entire prison population: "Have you ever considered that this was all your fault? Your presence creates these animals".
Satisfied? ;) ;D
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 7 May 2015, 11:30
Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 7 May 2015, 11:21
So much for starting an insightful discussion...sigh.
Satisfied? ;) ;D
Nope. lol.
I said I was looking for YALL's opinions, not a rehash of comics (and I guess I should have included video games) :P But thanks for at least helping me open the door, sweetie.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fworldsfinestonline.com%2FWF%2Fbatman%2Fbtas%2Fepisodes%2Flaughingfish%2F17.jpg&hash=1aa7fcefec462e631f00c2d5e09f44a7a4be1318)
;D
Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 7 May 2015, 14:27
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 7 May 2015, 11:30
Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 7 May 2015, 11:21
So much for starting an insightful discussion...sigh.
Satisfied? ;) ;D
Nope. lol.
I said I was looking for YALL's opinions, not a rehash of comics (and I guess I should have included video games) :P But thanks for at least helping me open the door, sweetie.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fworldsfinestonline.com%2FWF%2Fbatman%2Fbtas%2Fepisodes%2Flaughingfish%2F17.jpg&hash=1aa7fcefec462e631f00c2d5e09f44a7a4be1318)
;D
Touche. ;D ;D ;D
But I do think those examples I mentioned illustrate your point a bit. Batman's emergence does provoke the crazies who like to steal the media spotlight away from him. And for villains like the Joker, Batman's existence even fills an empty void in their pitiful lives. Hugo Strange actually envies the Batman and is obsessed with him; even wished he could be him.
For others, Batman is a worthy opponent in a battle of wits e.g. Riddler is trying to beat him intellectually and Ra's al Ghul tries to persuade Batman into sharing his twisted ideology to restore order in the planet. In terms of romance, Batman has a bit of a fling with Catwoman, but could never approve her law-breaking methods as a thief. Especially with the murderous Phantasm - who Batman
could have ended up like if he gave into his deadly desire for vengeance (according to what Dini and Timm were trying to say).
So yes, I do agree that Batman's presence does play a part in creating the villains sometimes. Although in Phantasm's case, she was created because of the Joker and the mob.
Do you think though that without Batman Andrea might have been left without hope though (this was the freaking mob, after all) and just left to grieve with no way of getting any kind of revenge? That he was a symbol of the kind of vengeance (even though she didn't know he was Bruce when she started) she needed and inspired her? Of course she took that inspiration and killed the SOBs and then turned around and tried to pin it on him. Bad form, gurl-frand. lol.
Ok ok I know, she didn't TRY to pin it on him, but the costume and everything else, what's going to be the OBVIOUS conclusion the pinheads in Gotham City are going to reach? But that's a question for another day. :P
BTW of course I LOVE Batsy and I love what he stands for and all that good stuff and if a few morons took that the wrong way and used it to do wrong, that's THEIR decision. That's how I feel about it. But I'm curious what YALL think.
I don't think he directly created them, but later on they put the city in danger just to attract his attention and try to kill him, so he gives them a reason to be, in a way. On the other hand, if there was no Batman then the city would surely be at the mercy of the mob as well as villains like the Joker.
That's right. Crime would have no doubt been there, Batsy just gave it a little flair and style ;) lol
Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 7 May 2015, 20:29
Do you think though that without Batman Andrea might have been left without hope though (this was the freaking mob, after all) and just left to grieve with no way of getting any kind of revenge? That he was a symbol of the kind of vengeance (even though she didn't know he was Bruce when she started) she needed and inspired her?
Yes that is a very good point. It's even more telling of Andrea towards the end of Mask of the Phantasm; she is stunned that Batman wouldn't condone her desire to get her revenge over the Joker, declaring that Batman out of all people should understand what she went through.
Let's not forget that Batman's return in The Dark Knight Returns did inspire paranoia and lunatics too. In that comic, a man dresses up as Batman only to get shot to death by an overzealous gunman, and a psychotic nutjob becomes inspired to gun down a "corrupt" audience attending a porno movie theatre.
By the way, I think a more pertinent question should be asked whether or not Batman
enables the villains nowadays? After all, his no-kill policy ensures that the likes of the Joker and Victor Zsasz will break out of prison and murder again, until Batman defeats them and send them back to Arkham Asylum, which only allows the whole cycle to repeat itself again.
I guess he is just the cop basically. His job is to stop them and bring them in and what happens after that is up to the system. If they get back out, it's on the system for allowing it.
To your comment about TDKR and his "inspiring" people, don't forget the mutants becoming the Sons of Batman and taking it WAY too far.
I had forgotten about the theater part. It took over 25 years but life sort of imitated art, only it was pure evil in real life. That story is the worst and I hate myself for even bringing it up. The worst punishment known to man isn't enough for that satan incarnate. :(
I think the BTAS episode "Trial" gives the best answer.
QuoteI used to believe Batman was responsible for you people but now I see nearly everyone here would have ended up exactly the same, Batman or not. Oh, the gimmicks might be different, but you'd all be out there in some form or another bringing misery to Gotham. The truth is, you created him.
^A very good counterexample there.
The issue over whether or not Batman inspires criminals does make for fascinating analysis. The other day, I was reading a comic made in 1989 called Secret Origins Special, and it was about a bleeding heart TV reporter who came to Gotham to interview witnesses associated to some of the city's most dangerous villains. He had an agenda to run a story about how the criminals were misunderstood victims of society and driven insane by Batman; similar to how Dr. Bartholomew Wolper was criticising Batman to support Joker in Dark Knight Returns.
Batman warned the reporter his agenda was terribly misguided, dangerous for his own safety, and Gotham City is a lot more complicated than he thinks it is. The reporter refused to take Batman's advice into account - he even perceived it as a threat - and ran the story. After concluding his report by asking the audience on camera if the likes of Joker, Two-Face etc would still be who they are if it weren't for Batman, the entire story ends with the reporter being poisoned by Joker Venom, presumably laughing himself to death.
One thing is certain, Gotham City would've been far worse without Batman. But in the Joker's case, there is some truth to Batman's presence having some negative consequences.
Interestingly, the average Joe who were interviewed by the reporter in this story were mostly apathetic towards Batman. Some still believed he was an urban legend. Very different compared to how Frank Miller explored how Batman's return from his decade long absence sparked debate in DKR.
Quote from: Slash Man on Thu, 14 May 2015, 04:26
I think the BTAS episode "Trial" gives the best answer.
QuoteI used to believe Batman was responsible for you people but now I see nearly everyone here would have ended up exactly the same, Batman or not. Oh, the gimmicks might be different, but you'd all be out there in some form or another bringing misery to Gotham. The truth is, you created him.
I think that was meant to be a plausible but questionable claim, especially as the attorney in defending Batman was also trying to save herself. And the episode kind of concludes that whether he did create them or not he is needed to deal with them.
Quote from: Andrew on Wed, 3 Oct 2018, 19:15
Quote from: Slash Man on Thu, 14 May 2015, 04:26
I think the BTAS episode "Trial" gives the best answer.
QuoteI used to believe Batman was responsible for you people but now I see nearly everyone here would have ended up exactly the same, Batman or not. Oh, the gimmicks might be different, but you'd all be out there in some form or another bringing misery to Gotham. The truth is, you created him.
I think that was meant to be a plausible but questionable claim, especially as the attorney in defending Batman was also trying to save herself. And the episode kind of concludes that whether he did create them or not he is needed to deal with them.
I was reading War on Crime again after many years and the last few panels have pertinent material on the validity of Batman's crusade. Batman's monologue states "I know I am fighting a war I can never completely win" so the focus should be on the small victories. The key part for me is "I helped Marcus deal with his pain. It will take him some time. But I know it will eventually leave him. Maybe some day I'll feel I can leave mine behind as well. But for now I still wait."
I agree with the comic's assessment. Bruce dons the cape and protects the City along the way, which is a positive for the masses. But Batman remains an individual experience because his own personal issues are so central to his very being. His stated endgame is to leave behind pain - however long that takes. And as we know, in the vast majority of incarnations it means waiting his whole life. Therefore Batman is mostly about feeling better about oneself in the moment, being an outlet for rage and sadness that is on a constant loop. Emotions that become like old friends that deep down he may not even want to say goodbye to. Because if he does, he feels as if he's betraying the memory of his parents, and the seriousness of their murder.