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There's been a bunch of rumors about Kilmer in the media, but when it comes to clarification, look no further than Val Kilmer himself.
https://www.facebook.com/valkilmer
I feel bad for him, he's recently been the target of much tabloid garbage, ranging from his weight to cancer rumors. Truth is, he's worked hard and now he's in great shape once again and looking to get back into acting. Just keep going and doing what you're doing.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi57.tinypic.com%2F27zm6ac.jpg&hash=91a613168c83445e8ea1a07ba1675fa2324cedc0) (https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wearysloth.com%2FGallery%2FActorsK%2F9393-1295.gif&hash=e10cb0915c20d6e511753c64d4a79fdb427e3feb)
He looks like Bruce again

Praying that whatever the issues are are like he said, totally overblown by the media.

Since it's the Val appreciation thread I'll start by saying that he was my fav Bruce Wayne. Even over Keats (thank you Jack Nicholson lol). He's an amazing actor and it's like "what could have been?" if he and Joel hadn't clashed and the studio hadn't effed stuff up.

I also thought he was good as Bruce Wayne and he was a pretty good Batman too, for me he's only second to Keaton. I know some criticise his acting in Batman Forever and say he was wooden and seemed sedated, but I don't see that.

I'd say that the movie's execution in the final cut made his acting feel awkward than it should have.

I'm beginning to warm up to Kilmer's take on Bruce/Batman recently. The fan cut that was linked here made his performance better in my opinion, especially since it removes a lot of the corny one liners. It goes to show that bad direction can affect an actor's performance. There were a few deleted scenes where he displayed solid acting without too much dialogue, e.g. contemplating his retirement with Alfred in the Batcave.

Glad to see Val is back in shape and healthy.

Michael Keaton's Bruce Wayne and Batman is "my number one guy" but Val Kilmer's is definitely my "number two" (and I mean that in it's positive sense, not the disgusting way Penguin used that term). I'm glad to hear Val is doing and looking okay. I'm a straight male but I have to say he looked absolutely gorgeous in Batman Forever. If I were a straight woman or gay I'd prefer him over Christian Bale in his Batman movies.

Quote from: JokerMeThis on Wed, 11 Mar  2015, 23:10
Michael Keaton's Bruce Wayne and Batman is "my number one guy" but Val Kilmer's is definitely my "number two" (and I mean that in it's positive sense, not the disgusting way Penguin used that term). I'm glad to hear Val is doing and looking okay. I'm a straight male but I have to say he looked absolutely gorgeous in Batman Forever. If I were a straight woman or gay I'd prefer him over Christian Bale in his Batman movies.

Sorry but I found Kilmer's Batman/Bruce Wayne a little bit dull and bland.  Keaton brought a lot of edginess to the character, playing a hermetic Bruce Wayne and an unhinged, borderline psychopathic Batman, Christian Bale played an angry but altruistic Batman under the daytime cover of a brash and spoiled playboy, Adam West made for a classically handsome and hilariously square Bruce Wayne/Batman, whilst George Clooney's version of the character, for all its faults, at least had personality as a dashing and affable, albeit overly-relaxed millionaire bachelor by day and a celebrity family-friendly crime-fighter by night.

But what did Kilmer bring to the part?  :-\

I liked Kilmer's portrayal of a quiet, thoughtful, introspective Bruce Wayne which I like because it's pretty much the same as Keaton's. Some people might think he seemed bored and maybe Kilmer was bored, but I like the way the character comes across. I thought Clooney's Bruce/Batman was too light and happy. Bale was okay but I'm just not enthusiastic about those movies.

I think Christian Bale is a much better actor than Val Kilmer. But I do think Kilmer's portrayal as Bruce Wayne/Batman is much better, cheesy lines notwithstanding. I agree with JMT that he gives an introspective approach to Batman's surroundings and contemplates whether his crusade was worth sacrificing his life for.

As I've said many times, I don't care for Bale's portrayal at all, nor do I think his character was ever well written. It's not his fault that he had to work with very faulty scripts, but the only time I was impressed with Bale's Bruce was when he was in agony, spiritually and physically, during TDKR. Otherwise, I found his Bruce very dull and reactionary - even in the scenes when he's supposed to be the playboy. And as for his Batman...need I say more?  ::) Kilmer's Batman looks better in comparison.

Kilmer is THE man and honestly one of my favourite actors - not just for Batman either, he's great in The Saint (what he chose over B&R), Top Secret!, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, TopGun, Heat, ect.

As Batman, he was great, I still see and always will see Keaton as THE Batman, but Kilmer isn't far off; he was brooding, dark, mysterious, his eyes were nearly as scary as Keaton's, his body build was great and perfect for the Batman, hell I'd say he was THE onscreen representation of the comic book Batman (so far, I do think that Affleck has that tied up after the BvS teaser).

Kilmer is the man, simple as!

We might as well discuss some of our favourite scenes with Kilmer in this movie since this is the appropriate thread to discuss them.

I have two scenes that I did like:

1) Where he tries to talk Dick out of taking revenge over Two-Face because it would only lead him to a path of self-destruction (as if he knows from first-hand experience, should you choose to consider this as a real sequel to Batman Returns), and;

2) He shoulder barges into Chase Meridian's office thinking she was in trouble and breaks the door in the process...only to discover that she had been working out. :D I can imagine Keaton playing that same level of awkwardness that Kilmer had.

I saw this on Kilmer's Twitter page.

Quote from: Val Kilmer
;D Look what I found. What a great gift one of my fans sent me...#batmanforever #valkilmer #batman #brucewayne #movies #cerealbox #actorslife

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlT-OJUUUAAkceY.jpg:large)

https://twitter.com/valkilmer/status/1032729740161953792

One of the things that works for me is how Kilmer brought a sense of desolation to the character during his private moments. That bit about twenty minutes into the movie where Gordon calls Alfred to let him know about the "accident". Bruce sits staring at the TV, his failure to stop Two-Face the night before and, now, his failure to save Harvey from the acid both fresh in his mind.

Maybe I'm projecting more onto the performance than it deserves but there's an emptiness to Bruce's soul that's so apparent in that quick little shot. So hopeless. So listless. He can't go backwards but he can't move forward either.

He's good at covering up his pain though. When he had his meeting with Stickley and Nygma earlier, he was the outgoing Mr. Nice Guy. But when others aren't around, he doesn't have to pretend like he doesn't want to die.

He was angry and vengeful in B89 and BR. But here in BF, he's now experiencing the remorse that accompanies his actions. Bruce has a conscience and its eating him alive. His conscience wants him to quit but his thirst for vengeance won't allow him to stop.

The scene at Wayne Enterprises with Nygma and the quick shot of Bruce watching TV are probably the best representations of the conflict that's slowly killing Bruce Wayne for a big part of the movie.

Sure, that stuff gets verbalized in the Batcave with Dick when Bruce warns him against seeking vengeance against Two-Face... but I like it better when those things are left unspoken.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 26 Aug  2018, 11:30
I saw this on Kilmer's Twitter page.

Quote from: Val Kilmer
;D Look what I found. What a great gift one of my fans sent me...#batmanforever #valkilmer #batman #brucewayne #movies #cerealbox #actorslife

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlT-OJUUUAAkceY.jpg:large)

https://twitter.com/valkilmer/status/1032729740161953792

Makes me want some Corn Pops. Not THOSE Corn Pops of course (yeeek!) but a fresh box.

That pic reminds me of part of what I love about Batman. When something big is happening, everyone gets involved. He's on cereal boxes, race cars, everywhere. Makes Kitty happy.

More than a week ago, I mentioned in another topic on the forum how comic book artist Paul Gulacy models Batman's cowl after the Bob Ringwood design, and colors said that he even adapted Kilmer's likeness for a sub plot in No Man's Land. If Gulacy has an appreciation for Kilmer, it's very obvious he's paying homage to him in this panel from the comic Year One: Batman/Ra's al Ghul. As you can see in the second panel above, Batman holding the rope in that comic is very identical to the way he was grabbing onto the chain during the helicopter scene in BF.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gulacy.com%2Fdc%2Fbatman%2Fyear-one%2Fyear-one01%2Fyear-one01-p41.jpg&hash=3e464c03211ccbee44784743e4010f610d07c575)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-mt5nvlKpNY/maxresdefault.jpg)

It's very rare to see somebody in the comics industry who gives props to Kilmer, let anything associated to a Joel Schumacher movie.

If there's an underrated Batman actor it's Val Kilmer, and he's worth advocating for. Traits of Keaton remain, but they are expanded upon in a way that makes this portrayal unique to Val. And for that I'm proud to include him along with the others (West, Keaton, etc) in a way that I'm not inclined to with Clooney. He has more of the traits that I admire, and Batman Forever is also the better movie. It's a broken record but if the film had all the deleted scenes reinstated it would be even better.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun,  2 Dec  2018, 10:28
If there's an underrated Batman actor it's Val Kilmer, and he's worth advocating for. Traits of Keaton remain, but they are expanded upon in a way that makes this portrayal unique to Val. And for that I'm proud to include him along with the others (West, Keaton, etc) in a way that I'm not inclined to with Clooney. He has more of the traits that I admire, and Batman Forever is also the better movie. It's a broken record but if the film had all the deleted scenes reinstated it would be even better.

It is a real shame that Kilmer has been virtually forgotten as a Batman actor. It was a big deal back in 1994 when it was announced that he was taking over for Keaton. And when the movie came out a year later, the general attitude seemed to be that the character was in good hands. But a mere ten years later, people had already forgotten about him.

If he'd turned in a bad performance, I could understand why that happened. But his work is first rate This is completely illogical. And yet it happened anyway.

I have to add that I like Val Kilmer as Batman more and more as time goes by and I visit the film again. Certainly an underrated Batman actor.

There is a very strong argument to be made that Val Kilmer was objectively the best Batman actor of the nineties (not counting Conroy).


If nothing else, he was physically closer to the comic book Batman than Keaton or Clooney were. None of the nineties Batman actors were muscular, but at least Kilmer was naturally broad shouldered and looked as though he'd done some cardio and perhaps a little light weight training. Online sources peg his height at around 5'11½-6'0, which is only slightly below the 6'1 height of the Golden Age comic book Batman.


He was also more convincing as a martial artist than Keaton or Clooney were. According to Bob Ringwood:

Quote"Val really worked hard on his body and martial arts. In fact, the first martial arts sequence you see in the movie, a bank job that Two-Face is trying to pull off, Val did almost if not all of everything you're seeing, the kicks and everything - in the suit and the cape, which weights 40 or 50 pounds (about 20 kg)."

http://www.angelfire.com/film/batman/movies/forever/design/costumes.html


I can't find any info detailing precisely which martial arts Val trained in, but based on what we see in the movie I'd guess his Batman uses a fusion of Wing Chun, Jiu-Jitsu and Karate (or possibly Taekwondo). Much of the fighting is clearly performed by stunt doubles, but Val did a respectable amount himself. His Batman isn't shown to be as superhumanly strong as Keaton's, but he was strong enough to slice the top off a wooden training dummy with one kick. He's also very agile and insanely durable. He survived falling 150 feet into Gotham Harbour, being immolated and buried beneath a collapsing subway station, and being shot in the head by Two-Face. The gunshot put him out of action for a few hours, but the other things merely left him bruised and mildly annoyed.

I like the fact we get to see some onscreen detective work with Kilmer's Bruce. We see him consulting with Chase over the psychological profile of his stalker, and we see him deciphering the Riddler's clues with the help of Alfred. There's also a deleted scene where he's shown dismantling and analysing Nygma's box.


This implies that in addition to his proficiency at psychoanalysis and enigmatology, he's also skilled at electronics and engineering; something that's further hinted at when Alfred mentions the sonar modifications he designed for his experimental Batsuit. He's also got some knowledge of computer science, as evidenced by the fact he was able to identify Stickley's suicide video as a computer-generated forgery while the rest of the GCPD was taken in by it. Alfred was right when he said, "You really are quite bright, despite what people say."

Then there's his Batman voice – smooth, calm and natural. It never sounded forced or unintentionally funny like Bale's, and yet it was darker and more sinister than the voice Clooney used. I don't think Kilmer's Batman was as badass or intimidating as Keaton's, but he compensated for this by exploring the more compassionate and emotionally vulnerable side of the character. Several critics at the time noted that his version of Batman was more humanised than Keaton's, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm not sure I could see Keaton's Bruce taking on a sidekick, but it makes sense for Kilmer's more compassionate incarnation to do so. He doesn't just take Dick Grayson under his wing so he can exploit his skills; he does it because he genuinely cares about the lad and wants to help him.


Kilmer's Bruce initially displays an almost Chekhovian dereliction of spirit, as though he's been doing what he does for so long now that he's forgotten why he's doing it. He needs Chase to help him unlock his repressed memories, and in so doing gain a fresh understanding of his raison d'être. Once he's able to decode his past, and free himself of his repressed guilt, he's then able to take charge of his life and control his destiny. Keaton's Batman was a slave to his tragic past, but Kilmer's Batman was able to master his pain and take charge of it. It's just a shame that his most emotional scenes all ended up on the cutting room floor. But anyone who's seen the numerous fan edits will now how good he was.



Outside of his performance as Batman, I've really come to appreciate just how good an actor Val Kilmer is. His nineties filmography includes some legitimately great films like Tombstone (1993), Heat (1995) and The Prince of Egypt (1998). Those have all aged beautifully and are now rightly regarded as classics. I can't say the same for most of the films Keaton and Clooney made during that decade. And yet despite this, Kilmer remains the only Batman actor from the Warner Bros film series to never receive an Academy Award nomination (Affleck's never been nominated for an acting Oscar either, though he has won two Academy Awards in other fields). He's badly underrated, and so is his Batman.

He also gets bonus points for being married to Daredevil's mum.


Daredevil's mum... Oh, Daredevil... Why did they cancel you? Why... :(

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun,  2 Dec  2018, 17:01

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun,  2 Dec  2018, 10:28
If there's an underrated Batman actor it's Val Kilmer, and he's worth advocating for. Traits of Keaton remain, but they are expanded upon in a way that makes this portrayal unique to Val. And for that I'm proud to include him along with the others (West, Keaton, etc) in a way that I'm not inclined to with Clooney. He has more of the traits that I admire, and Batman Forever is also the better movie. It's a broken record but if the film had all the deleted scenes reinstated it would be even better.

It is a real shame that Kilmer has been virtually forgotten as a Batman actor. It was a big deal back in 1994 when it was announced that he was taking over for Keaton. And when the movie came out a year later, the general attitude seemed to be that the character was in good hands. But a mere ten years later, people had already forgotten about him.

If he'd turned in a bad performance, I could understand why that happened. But his work is first rate This is completely illogical. And yet it happened anyway.

It really is illogical how the Clooney film changed the perception of the Schumacher era as a whole. Kilmer wore glasses like Keaton. He had a quiet, awkward side (knocking down Chase's door) and was a businessman (inspecting the Wayne building). He was a little more of a public identity (attending the circus and the Nygmatech party) but still invites Chase to the Manor for a private meeting ala Selina in BR. His greatest point of difference is that thoughtful, deep reflection of what he has done during his career. It's apparent in his quiet, whispery voice.

As an aside, I really dig the Batman aesthetic in BF. The cave, the suits, the car and the gadgets.

And Silver, great post. You've argued Kilmer's case very well indeed.

I remember Joe Eszterhas, a screenwriter who wrote many Hollywood blockbusters and known for recording one of Mel Gibson's drunken tirades, had badmouthed a lot of big names in the industry. Including Kilmer.

Quote from: Joe Eszterhas
Val Kilmer is an imbecile. Asked by the Academy to nominate the three best film moments of the century, Kilmer nominated three of his movies. One of them was Batman Forever.

Source: https://www.nydailynews.com/archives/gossip/devil-details-eszterhas-book-article-1.549767

If this is true, I like Kilmer even more, what a boss! ;D The Oscars are a load of pretentious rubbish anyway.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon,  3 Dec  2018, 13:33
I remember Joe Eszterhas, a screenwriter who wrote many Hollywood blockbusters and known for recording one of Mel Gibson's drunken tirades, had badmouthed a lot of big names in the industry. Including Kilmer.

Quote from: Joe Eszterhas
Val Kilmer is an imbecile. Asked by the Academy to nominate the three best film moments of the century, Kilmer nominated three of his movies. One of them was Batman Forever.

Source: https://www.nydailynews.com/archives/gossip/devil-details-eszterhas-book-article-1.549767

If this is true, I like Kilmer even more, what a boss! ;D The Oscars are a load of pretentious rubbish anyway.

This from the guy who wrote Showgirls. Joe Eszterhas is in no position to criticize anybody for anything.

I'd like to touch upon a couple of scenes that resonant with me from Forever.

1. Batman rises from the flames

A short sequence, but one that symbolizes the unstoppable force that Batman truly is. He's put into a deathtrap full of gas, which is then ignited. Using his cape to shield himself from the fire is simple but impressive. In the spirit of Adam West, Batman pretty much has a solution to every problem he's faced with. But the money shot is when he runs onto the platform, glaring at Two-Face. Yes, he is then buried under sand in a weakened condition. But he can only ever be halted, not permanently stopped. The sand burial and subsequent rescue humanized Batman in a way similar to the B89 batwing crash. He's obviously a hero and you feel sympathy for the guy after all he's endured.

2. Thumbs up

This scene has long been a meme. But I won't forget the feeling I had upon first seeing it. Context matters. Dick ran away, Chase was kidnapped, the batcave had been destroyed, Bruce was in a coma and the villains had their lair at full power. Pretty high stakes for ANY Batman story. That atmosphere is felt when Gordon turns on the batsignal, only for it to be blotted out by the Riddler's signal. The villains are in charge and they're flaunting it.

"He's not coming. Shut it down." At this point, all hope for law enforcement and thus the City seems to be lost.

But then the Batman theme slowly begins to swell. Gordon puts up his hand in anticipated hope.

"Wait a minute, wait a minute!" A smile fills his face as the Batwing, at full speed, shatters the corrupted Riddler batsignal, restoring its purity. Gordon cheers, yelling "go, go, go!" And then we gets that thumbs up from Batman, as Gordon laughs and shakes hands with his fellow officer. Hope has returned. Batman AND Robin are coming for the villains, and Gordon knows the City will soon be back in business.

A Schumacher Cut Twitter account is planning to celebrate Kilmer's portrayal this Monday.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ee2wvMlWkAk0pu_?format=jpg&name=large)

https://twitter.com/CutSchumacher/status/1291882998284132357/

I'm convinced deep down, most people liked Kilmer in the role than they might be willing to admit. In the meantime, here is this picture of Kilmer's Batman, taken from the Two-Face bank heist scene.

(https://i.imgur.com/dDp20BJ.jpg)

I've never seen it before, it's a great shot.

Val celebrates 26 years of his Batman film:

https://twitter.com/valkilmer/status/1405180026027266049

QuoteHas it really been 26 years since Batman Forever? I always love learning more about this character. So complex and nuanced. Here's one you might find fun, especially if you're a fan of Frank Miller's Batman: Year One. Bruce Wayne becomes Batman at age 26. Forever yours

I really want the Forever director's cut to be made available. In all honesty it would be better than most CBMs being made today. A dream scenario would be an announcement at 2021 Fandome, and dreaming even harder, a Batman '95 comic series. But I don't see the latter happening for years, if at all, as there's now a heavy push for Keatonverse continuity.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 17 Jun  2021, 06:21
Val celebrates 26 years of his Batman film:

https://twitter.com/valkilmer/status/1405180026027266049

QuoteHas it really been 26 years since Batman Forever? I always love learning more about this character. So complex and nuanced. Here's one you might find fun, especially if you're a fan of Frank Miller's Batman: Year One. Bruce Wayne becomes Batman at age 26. Forever yours

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people incorrectly state that Bruce is 25 when he first becomes Batman in Year One. Val is absolutely correct here – the YO Bruce is 26 when he first dons the cowl, not 25. He's 25 at the start of that year, when he first returns to Gotham in January.


Bruce's Wayne's birthday is February 19th.


Which means he turns 26 a few weeks later. He first dons the cowl in April. His age is confirmed when we are told that 18 years have passed since his parents were killed.



Bruce is 8 when his parents died, which means he must be 26 when he first dons the costume.

The Golden Age Earth-Two Batman, on the other hand, was born on April 7th 1915, which means he was 24 when he started his career in May 1939.

The Burtonverse Batman is older than his comic book counterparts when he begins his crusade. Keaton was 37 when he shot Batman '89, but according to Sam Hamm's original script Bruce is meant to be 35 in that movie.

If we take The Dark Knight Returns as canon, then the Miller Batman quit fighting crime when he was 45, only to return after a ten year hiatus when he was 55. So that means he was active as Batman for about 19 years. If The Flash (2022) confirms that Keaton's Batman has been fighting crime nonstop since the events of Batman Returns, as many of us are hoping, then he will have been protecting Gotham from the age of 35-70. That's 35 years – 16 years longer than the Miller Batman, and 33½ years longer than the Nolan Batman.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 17 Jun  2021, 06:21I really want the Forever director's cut to be made available. In all honesty it would be better than most CBMs being made today. A dream scenario would be an announcement at 2021 Fandome, and dreaming even harder, a Batman '95 comic series. But I don't see the latter happening for years, if at all, as there's now a heavy push for Keatonverse continuity.

I wouldn't have objected if they'd kept the Burton and Schumacher universes together, but I can't deny I'm excited by the possibilities that have been opened up by their separation. As I've stated in other threads, I'm particularly excited to see the Billy Dee Williams Two-Face finally come to fruition. He had a good setup in the 1989 film, where Dent was established as a charismatic and courageous DA who was clearly starting to buckle under the pressure the criminal underworld was putting on him. Now we'll finally get to see him confront his destiny in the B89 comic, and hopefully he'll at least make a cameo in The Flash as well. There's no mention of the Burtonverse renaissance on Williams' social media pages, which in itself is slightly suspicious, and most of his recent posts appear to be gym related. Is he training to get in shape for The Flash? I hope so. I know he's in his mid-eighties, but with good make-up effects and a convincing stunt double he could still be a badass Two-Face and a worthy successor to Nicholson's Joker and DeVito's Penguin.


Williams was the first actor to play Dent in live action, and if he does appear in The Flash then he'll be the first actor to have played the character in two live action movies (and three theatrical films if you count The Lego Batman movie). He could still make his mark as one of the best screen versions of Two-Face to date. The Nolan version had the pathos and drama down, but altered Dent's psychological profile. The Schumacher version mostly had the psychology down, but lacked the pathos and drama of the comic version. Williams' Two-Face could combine the best of both – accurately depicting Dent's dual personality and obsession with binary-themed crimes while preserving the tragic and intimating qualities that make the character such a compelling villain. Between the new B89 comic and the possibility of him appearing in The Flash movie, the potential's there for Williams' iteration to become one of the most memorable versions of Two-Face yet.

As for the future of the Schumacherverse, I agree that a comic's probably the best way to go. Val's health issues make it unlikely he'd be able to voice Batman in an animated film, but a comic would be perfectly viable. If the Burton films no longer precede the Schumacher movies, then maybe the Batman '95 comic should be a prequel instead of a sequel. Schumacher said he originally wanted to make a cinematic version of Year One. Perhaps some of his unused ideas for that project could form the basis of the prequel comic. If the events of Batman '89 are no longer canonical to that universe, then let's see how Kilmer's Bruce first met Gordon and established himself as a trusted crime fighter. If Pfeiffer's Catwoman is no longer canonical to the Schumacherverse, then a new version could appear as part of a campy retelling of the Year One story. Chase alludes to "skin-tight vinyl and a whip" in BF, so Kilmer's Batman has clearly faced Catwoman. What would a Schumacher version of Selina be like?

There are also those rumours of a third Batman besides Keaton and Affleck making a cameo in The Flash. If that does happen then I've got a feeling it's going to be Pattinson, but it would be awesome if it turned out to be Val. They could even get O'Donnell to put in an appearance as Nightwing. I doubt this will happen, but it would be a great way of appealing to nineties nostalgia and clearly establishing that the Burton and Schumacher universes are separate, thereby paving the way for a Batman '95 comic. Even if that doesn't happen, I don't see why we shouldn't get a director's cut of Batman Forever at some point. The success of the JL Snyder Cut has demonstrated that there's a market for new edits of older DC movies. Whenever I watch BF now, I generally watch the virtual workprint fan edit rather than the theatrical cut. But a director's cut might be better than either of those.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 17 Jun  2021, 14:51
If we take The Dark Knight Returns as canon, then the Miller Batman quit fighting crime when he was 45, only to return after a ten year hiatus when he was 55. So that means he was active as Batman for about 19 years. If The Flash (2022) confirms that Keaton's Batman has been fighting crime nonstop since the events of Batman Returns, as many of us are hoping, then he will have been protecting Gotham from the age of 35-70. That's 35 years – 16 years longer than the Miller Batman, and 33½ years longer than the Nolan Batman.

The childhood Batman endured throughout the years, just as he did against Ray Charles. Fighting longer than any other Batman would very much be in his spirit, putting him into legend status.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 17 Jun  2021, 14:51
If the Burton films no longer precede the Schumacher movies, then maybe the Batman '95 comic should be a prequel instead of a sequel.

For me the Burton content still happened in the Schumacher duology, but when things progressed past Returns the timelines diverged. That makes the most sense to me, and I think having a brand new origin story for the Schumacherverse would feel very odd. My comic series idea would be about the journey to 1997's Batman and Robin, which could involve Kilmer driving the Clooneymobile, pushing the idea this is the same universe despite the change in lead actor.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 17 Jun  2021, 14:51There are also those rumours of a third Batman besides Keaton and Affleck making a cameo in The Flash. If that does happen then I've got a feeling it's going to be Pattinson, but it would be awesome if it turned out to be Val.

I'm up for either but a Val cameo would bring down the house for children of the 90s. The guy clearly embraces Batman as a part of his life, and has interest in the mythology and psychology. I respect that.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 17 Jun  2021, 14:51
Even if that doesn't happen, I don't see why we shouldn't get a director's cut of Batman Forever at some point.

Akiva Goldman's recent comments about viewing a director's cut gives some hope. I was half expecting an announcement at last year's Fandome, and was disappointed when it didn't come to pass. Let's see what happens later this year.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 17 Jun  2021, 14:51
The Burtonverse Batman is older than his comic book counterparts when he begins his crusade. Keaton was 37 when he shot Batman '89, but according to Sam Hamm's original script Bruce is meant to be 35 in that movie.

If we take The Dark Knight Returns as canon, then the Miller Batman quit fighting crime when he was 45, only to return after a ten year hiatus when he was 55. So that means he was active as Batman for about 19 years. If The Flash (2022) confirms that Keaton's Batman has been fighting crime nonstop since the events of Batman Returns, as many of us are hoping, then he will have been protecting Gotham from the age of 35-70. That's 35 years – 16 years longer than the Miller Batman, and 33½ years longer than the Nolan Batman.

Did Batman only start within the same year as the events of the movie? I think that part is up for debate, seeing as it's referenced that there were multiple sightings beforehand, but this was his most high profile case that ultimately confirmed his existence to the public.

Granted, logic says it wouldn't be as long as ten years since it's implausible that Gordon would have never seen Batman at all in that time. But who knew how long it took for his presence to be built as an urban legend to scare smalltime crooks and set Knox up on a chase. Also, I've heard Keaton was interested in doing a backstory as a potential third Batman film. This would no doubt set him up a few years before Batman.

Also, it's strange to imagine the Schumacher stories now being split into a separate continuity. While it's clear that the '89 comic will take place in an elseworlds continuity from the movies (on account of Robin and Two-Face), I don't think the inverse applies to the Schumacher stories retroactively becoming it's own timeline. That simply goes against the filmmakers original intentions. I'm willing to suspend disbelief for the 89 comic because we were given every indication that a continuation of Burton's Bat would be vastly different from Schumacher's, and the original screenwriter's contribution just completes the sense of authenticity.

LOL, how did anyone miss this?  ;D

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/val-kilmer-batman-oral-sex-catwoman-harley-quinn-1234969038/amp/

Quote from: Slash Man on Wed, 30 Jun  2021, 19:44Did Batman only start within the same year as the events of the movie? I think that part is up for debate, seeing as it's referenced that there were multiple sightings beforehand, but this was his most high profile case that ultimately confirmed his existence to the public.

Granted, logic says it wouldn't be as long as ten years since it's implausible that Gordon would have never seen Batman at all in that time. But who knew how long it took for his presence to be built as an urban legend to scare smalltime crooks and set Knox up on a chase. Also, I've heard Keaton was interested in doing a backstory as a potential third Batman film. This would no doubt set him up a few years before Batman.

Bruce could have been active for a longer period of time. I assume the Batman persona is relatively new though, since it was clear from his confrontation with Eddie and Nick that he was actively trying to announce his existence to the criminal underworld, yet he was still not widely acknowledged as being real. If he was active for more than a couple of months before the events of Batman 89, then I'd imagine he was doing so without the Batman persona, similar to the scene in Year One where he first encounters Selina and her pimp Stan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPj51SR1OI0

I'm sure we'll some behind the scenes stuff for Forever :D

I'll definitely check this out. I hope Val has some behind-the-scenes footage from the set of The Island of Dr. Moreau (1996). There was already an excellent documentary on that subject - Lost Soul: The Doomed Journey of Richard Stanley's Island of Dr. Moreau (2014) – but now I'd like to hear Val's side of the story.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed,  7 Jul  2021, 16:18
I'll definitely check this out. I hope Val has some behind-the-scenes footage from the set of The Island of Dr. Moreau (1996). There was already an excellent documentary on that subject - Lost Soul: The Doomed Journey of Richard Stanley's Island of Dr. Moreau (2014) – but now I'd like to hear Val's side of the story.

Yeah, that story of the supposed one and only conversation Val and Marlon Brando had on the set of Moreau was brief, but absolutely hysterical.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  7 Jul  2021, 16:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPj51SR1OI0

I'm sure we'll some behind the scenes stuff for Forever :D

If anyone is wondering, his son Jack is narrating the documentary. You can easily mistake him for Val.

Very sad to hear Val Kilmer has lost the ability to speak naturally. f*** cancer.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed,  7 Jul  2021, 16:18
I'll definitely check this out. I hope Val has some behind-the-scenes footage from the set of The Island of Dr. Moreau (1996). There was already an excellent documentary on that subject - Lost Soul: The Doomed Journey of Richard Stanley's Island of Dr. Moreau (2014) – but now I'd like to hear Val's side of the story.

I really respect Val. I think he has elements of true genius in his approach to acting and art in general, which can rub some people the wrong way. He seems to be a thinking man who thoroughly studies and rehearses, investing everything he has. He doesn't seem to be a mercenary actor. As per IMDB, surviving members of The Doors claim Kilmer did such a good job playing and singing as Jim Morrison that they could not distinguish his voice from the real Jim Morrison. It's sad what has happened to Val's voice, but I'm grateful he's still alive. He can speak to the world through this old footage. I'll be watching the movie.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun,  4 Jul  2021, 20:21
Bruce could have been active for a longer period of time. I assume the Batman persona is relatively new though, since it was clear from his confrontation with Eddie and Nick that he was actively trying to announce his existence to the criminal underworld, yet he was still not widely acknowledged as being real. If he was active for more than a couple of months before the events of Batman 89, then I'd imagine he was doing so without the Batman persona, similar to the scene in Year One where he first encounters Selina and her pimp Stan.

Another conflicting issue to add to the mix; there is a considerable amount of preparation needed for Batman's arsenal. The construction of the Batcave, the hologram projector, the Batmobile, and especially the Batwing needed a considerable amount of time to build and implement. Let's say Batman has only been Batman for a couple of months; how long did he gradually acquire the parts to build his arsenal? Seeing as it's all fully equipped and working when we see him. This is a bit at odds with the comics, where Batman gradually evolved his tools, build his base, and constructed his vehicles over a longer period of crimefighting. Out of universe, it obviously makes sense for the film that we got it all at once, versus starting out with him not even having a car and batarangs.

Bruce operating as a vigilante before Batman seems to help bridge the gap of Keaton's Batman starting out so late. Though it wouldn't explain all the technology that already has a bat motif built in. This is probably worthy of its own topic at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZeYmqOvXqE

Has anyone else caught the Val documentary that's now available to stream on Amazon Prime? I skimmed straight to its coverage on Batman Forever and it gave me a new perspective on Kilmer's casting.

We've all heard the story how Kilmer got the call while he was in South Africa and how he said yes without reading the script. For the first time, I thought about just what was going through his head that made him go ahead instead of hesitate.

It was likely explained to him that he would carry on from what Keaton had been doing in the previous films and that gave him a preconceived notion that this film would no different from the previous. He had no idea that this would eventually turn into the lighter and softer film that was released.

Kilmer lamented over the combersome batsuit, which was always cited as what enhanced Keaton's performance, as he suffered from claustrophobia. Val also said that he felt lost between his subtle performance and the over the top-ness of Jim Carrey and Tommy Lee Jones and found himself slipping into what he called "soap opera acting," like when he took hands on hips stances.

After a while, he said that no one would talk to him while he was in costume. Val seems like the type of person who feels like something of wrong if no one is giving him attention while Keaton seems fine if he would be left alone. It goes to show you the different ways the Batman actors react to playing the character.

After soaking this in, it made me think if fans are disappointed in how Batman Forever turned out, just think about how it was for the actors. No wonder he said "DUH!" when he was asked if he dodged a bullet not being in Batman & Robin.

Val Kilmer has a new voice

https://youtu.be/OSMue60Gg6s

Glad he has at least that to express himself.

Interesting to see HBO Max call Kilmer an icon in this promotional tweet.

https://www.twitter.com/hbomax/status/1475134316237799427

Okay...so where is the Schumacher cut?

The fact they list Routh as an icon as well, despite starring in a Superman movie that killed the franchise for seven years, is rather amusing.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 27 Dec  2021, 01:53
Interesting to see HBO Max call Kilmer an icon in this promotional tweet.

https://www.twitter.com/hbomax/status/1475134316237799427

Okay...so where is the Schumacher cut?

It's not on HBO Max, that's all I know.

For better or worse, I'm not sure Kilmer's Batman can be considered iconic. But Kilmer as a film actor is most certainly an icon at this point. His Eighties comedies, Iceman, Jim Morrison, Doc Holliday, Moses, arguably Madmartigan, John Henry Patterson, he has played iconic roles. Or at least been in iconic movies. I think it's a fair description of his film career.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 27 Dec  2021, 01:53The fact they list Routh as an icon as well, despite starring in a Superman movie that killed the franchise for seven years, is rather amusing.

Pfah. Tell me about it. The star of the very same "Superman" movie that got completely blown out of the water by a pirate movie is somehow an "icon"?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 27 Dec  2021, 03:32
For better or worse, I'm not sure Kilmer's Batman can be considered iconic.

Not iconic. But BF is a true 90s movie and I think people enjoy it more than they're willing to admit. I love it. And funnily enough, if the Keaton revival doesn't pan out as we would have liked, the Schumacherverse will still stand preserved even though the intention was to jettison it and its continuity to the rear view mirror.

I know Kilmer already expressed his disappointment over his Batman experience months ago. But out of curiosity, I had a look at what he said back in 1997, when he explained why he decided to star in The Saint instead of B&R. As you can see, he didn't care for franchise movie making.

Quote from: Val Kilmer
With 'Batman,' the reason it's so popular has nothing to do with me.

And with respect to Mr. Clooney or Michael [Keaton] before us, it doesn't have much to do with them, either. . . .

One of the reasons it wasn't such a lure to go back to do Batman is that they were so happy with the product. There was nothing stimulating to me in that in a personal way. There's nothing wrong with success, and it's hard to conceive that it wouldn't be [successful] again. It's just not stimulating.

Not to take anything away from [Batman creator] Bob Kane, but you have a choice between a comic book and, with 'The Saint,' a literary figure that has inspired this whole espionage genre, this notion of the gentleman thief, surviving by his wits, notbrawn.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-04-03-ca-44947-story.html

Quote from: Val Kilmer
People have said I enjoy playing other characters more than I like being myself. That's not true. Have you ever seen Robin Williams? Robin makes me laugh, but that's not my bag.

I got into acting to find out more about myself and I did. I just love my work, and I function just like other people. As an actor, you can't help but be interested in people. I like different voices and odd characters, but the things I like to do aren't actor things - I like to read, ride my horse and spend time in wilderness ...

But I will say, playing Simon [Templar] was a lot more challenging to me than Batman. Batman is more of a physical presence, while Simon is a thief - a thinker - a much more interesting character all together.

https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2578229/kilmer-enjoys-disguises-in-the-saint

His experience was definitely soured even further when he didn't get along with Schumacher, for whatever reason. I don't know if he was in the wrong or not, but he was resentful and confused over Schumacher's negative assessment of him at the time. Seems to me it was a typical case of personality clashes.

I watched The Saint many years ago, and found it entertaining. Maybe Kilmer might've appreciated playing Bruce Wayne just a little bit better if BF explored his expertise as a master of disguise, like in the comics, and emphasised more on the detective side.

This guy has a bit of a Kilmer lovefest going on. BF fans will probably like what this guy has to say, at least about Kilmer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCHEg97fqfs

I found this blog post containing these old scans of Kilmer talking about Forever, addressing rumours that he and Jim Carrey didn't get along and he was expected to play Batman again for another couple of films. His falling out with Schumacher despite saying they got along in the interview did him favours with B&R bombing in the end.

https://www.1995batman.com/2020/09/magazine-article-film-review-magazine.html