This could be just because they come from the same source material but I noticed alot of what I like to think are nods to B89.
For example
-The scene with the Batpod where the Joker is saying "come on and hit me" reminded me so much of B89
-The fact that Joker falls off the building (although he is saved this time round)
If anyone noticed others please post.
The mob meeting scene
TDK greatly improves over the similar Batman (1989) moments:
In TDK, Joker refuses to move, Batman stands down adhering to his no killing policy, and swerves out of the way. In doing so, he falls off the bike and is rendered unconscious. Joker essentially ?wins? without doing a thing, and moves over to take care of Batman ? before being arrested by Gordon.
This is MUCH better than the similar Batman (1989) moment, where Batman swoops down in the Batwing and opens fire on Joker, only to be shot down. There, he looks incompetent with his missile aim (that or his equipment is faulty )and a killer ? neither which he is. He could be trying to intimidate the Joker, but I don't see him taking that risk.
In TDK, Joker falls off the building and is saved. A lot better than falling to his death, which was an epic mistake in Batman (1989)
The Joker meeting the mob in TDK is better too. The Joker's 'magic trick', where he kills a man by impaling his head on an upright pencil, is fantastic. Ledger is a joy to watch, it is as if he has electricity running through his body. I love him revealing his stash of grenades in his jacket as well. Like Nicholson said, Heath brought The Joker to another level.
Another "similar, but different" part was when the Joker goon tried to unmask Batman.
In B89, they almost get a peek if it weren't for Vicki Vale's flashbulb. In The Dark Knight,, Batman has a security system that shocks the guy.
Ah yes, forgot that. It makes sense to have something like that. I though it was a nice upgrade for the suit.
I think these moments are little nods to the film, like the "I'm Batman" scene that introduced the costumed Batman in "Begins". These similarities aren't accidental, like Zimmer's nod to Elfman's theme and the Descent into Mystery ostinato in parts of the OST. :)
Indeed. They could be little nods here and there. Though, I'm sure it can be hard not to repeat yourself now and then. The fear gas plumes at the end of Begins were suspiciously similar to the Batman (1989) finale.
Harvey's line... ;)
http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/gallery.php?showpicture=192
Nice! I had no idea of that one.
I'd like the title for Batman 3 to incorporate some words from Harvey's quote "The night is darkest just before the dawn, I promise you, the dawn is coming". Fit dawn in there somewhere, I say. We've had 'The Dark Knight', now the skies are slowly clearing.
Do you know that line 'the night is darkest before the dawn' is stole from a 1989 Batman poster,
'Justice is darkest before the dawn'
Also a scene what is similar to Batman 89 is when the Joker slides down the pyrimid of money and sets it alite. Reminds me of the Joker throwing money out to the citizens of gotham. Both Jokers do not need the money.
But I also feel this is Nolan trying to 'outdo' Burton Which is why I do not like him.
And the Dark Knight, your POV is so biased you are blinded by your own ignorance. The Dark Knight film is so average. And Heaths performance was good but not oscar worthy. He wasnt scary either. He should have looked at Gary Oldman in Leon if he wanted to play scary.
Its funny how Batman can be knocked on conscience by falling off his wee bike, yet he is unharmed after falling 100feet with rachal Dawes in his arms!!
And did you watch the film at all? Joker didnt want to kill Batman! And he wanted to be caught at this point of the film, as Joker says 'Its all part of the plan' - Batman says later 'he wanted to be caught!'
And as for the Joker dying in Batman 89, it is a motion picture. Not to be continued. The Joker deserved to die, hence making a it a complete and in my eyes still the definitive Batman film.
Quote from: Joker81 on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, 19:08
Do you know that line 'the night is darkest before the dawn' is stole from a 1989 Batman poster,
'Justice is darkest before the dawn'
This has already been noted.
Quote from: Joker81 on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, 19:08
But I also feel this is Nolan trying to 'outdo' Burton Which is why I do not like him.
He has done that. Look at my post above that compares the similar scenes.
Quote from: Joker81 on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, 19:08And the Dark Knight, your POV is so biased you are blinded by your own ignorance.
The very same thing can be said of you.
Maybe it's the cynic in me but I think these moments came about because Nolan is telling a Batman vs. Joker story, not because B89 was any real influence on the production.
Could be wrong though.
I think it's out of the question to say "Nolan tries to outdo Burton" because what he does is completely different. I believe that some things, especially some obvious ones (Joker falling and being grappled by Batman) classify as references. It happens that film adaptations of a myth, book or comic include some references to older film versions. Some Joker moments indeed bring Jack to mind, since the late actor obviously had Jack Nicholson's performance in his mind as a precedent, even though his intentions (and directions) were anything but to mimick the 89 Joker (with the result being a very different Joker).
I too have noticed "nods" to Burton in Nolan's two Batfilms you mentioned. I don't think Nolan is trying to out do Burton at all, if anything these "nods" are ones of respect to THE most important Batfilm ever. B89 changed the way the mass public viewed Batman. It for the most part erased camp from the Batman vocabulary from the 60's/70's until the Shumacher films brought it back. In a similar way, BB tried to change the way the public's view of Batman away from the camp of Shumacher's B&R and towards a more serious and respectful tone. I think both films had similiar missions to reenergize the franchise and make it more respectful to the character, and both were/are successful, but just done in a different way. I could be wrong, but the only things I've heard or read about Nolan's take on previous directors was regarding Shumacher's nipple suits, not necessarily any of Burton's stuff.
On the "nods," point, anyone noticed that as Batman glides over the Narrows in BB and the people below are hallucinating, that it looks like the Batglider that Batman uses as he soars over the square in BR after the Ice Princess fell. Maybe Nolan likes BR too ;)
Quote from: BurtonBatman on Sun, 27 Jul 2008, 01:35
B89 changed the way the mass public viewed Batman. It for the most part erased camp from the Batman vocabulary from the 60's/70's until the Shumacher films brought it back.
That it did. It made Batman as serious figure again. It is a massive shame Schumacher had to rip the rug from under our feet.
There also a very brief scene in TDK where Batman is beating up guys in a nightclub with colored lights while trying to capture Eric Roberts to interrogate him. A friend of mine, sitting at my side, said "Batman Forever" ;D
I thought 'Robocop'
Its funny how when I say Nolan tries to outdo Burton you all disagree. Yet when the dark knight says its done better in TDK than in Batman you all arent so quick to say a word against that?
Strange indeed.
I have had 3 days to chew over TDK and I for one think it is diffinatley an average film. One that wont be remembered too much in a few years.
Sin City was better, even a better comic book film.
Quote
Do you know that line 'the night is darkest before the dawn' is stole from a 1989 Batman poster
'Justice is darkest before the dawn'
WOW That's awesome i never knew that.
QuoteBut I also feel this is Nolan trying to 'outdo' Burton Which is why I do not like him.
I know what you mean i like Nolan and his movie's but it's like he's starting to get pulled into his own hype. Like the Joker falling at the end and Batman saving him, it was like he was trying to mock the Burton movie's.
QuoteAnd as for the Joker dying in Batman 89, it is a motion picture. Not to be continued. The Joker deserved to die, hence making a it a complete and in my eyes still the definitive Batman film.
Also what people forget or refuse to that into acount is the fact that back in 1989 they had no idea if Batman would sink or swim so they had to make the best movie they could without leaving it open to a sequel that may have never been, While Nolan had a guaranteed sequel, 16 years of special effects and a bigger budget.
Also i don't know if it need's to be added or not but the scene from TDK when the Batpod broke out of the Batmobile remined me alot of the part from Returns when Batman is being chased by the police and brake's his Batmissle out of his Batmobile.
You are also forgetting that there was also a nod to Tim Burton's Batman 1989 in the The Dark Knight, when Rachael Dawes is at a dinner party and has an encounter with the Joker. When things get out of hand, Batman comes to rescue her. Same thing happened in 'Batman' when Batman rescues Vikie Vale!
Quote from: Joker81 on Sun, 27 Jul 2008, 12:28
One that wont be remembered too much in a few years.
Doubtful. The film is making millions and Ledger's amazing Joker will live forever.
Quote from: Sandman on Mon, 28 Jul 2008, 00:59
Also i don't know if it need's to be added or not but the scene from TDK when the Batpod broke out of the Batmobile remined me alot of the part from Returns when Batman is being chased by the police and brake's his Batmissle out of his Batmobile.
Let me add, that while I adore the bat-missile, I like the bat pod more. It is more manoeuvrable, and it is an altogether different vehicle, where the bat-missile was essentially a stripped down Batmobile.
Quote
Let me add, that while I adore the bat-missile, I like the bat pod more. It is more manoeuvrable, and it is an altogether different vehicle, where the bat-missile was essentially a stripped down Batmobile.
I just meant it reminded me alot of that scene. Yes the Batpod looked good but i have a article with the stunt driver who's said it was next to impossible to drive lol.
QuoteDoubtful. The film is making millions and Ledger's amazing Joker will live forever.
Just like Jack.
Quote from: Sandman on Mon, 28 Jul 2008, 07:56
QuoteDoubtful. The film is making millions and Ledger's amazing Joker will live forever.
Just like Jack.
Exactly. Both films will be remembered.
the biggest nod to B89 is clearly batman throwing joker off the building, and that's the one "nod" to B89 that has been discussed where nolan might be trying to outdo burton. nolan has said that burton's biggest mistake was killing off the joker, batman's greatest nemesis. someone said how it was a "complete film" and they didn't know how good or bad it was going to do so they couldn't leave it open for a sequel, but you don't have to leave a movie open for a sequel by killing the bad guy. just so everyone's clear, the dark knight was almost not made. nolan does one movie at a time, and when he was filming BB he has no knowledge of where the next movie would go if at all. i heard rumors of how IF a sequel were made joker wouldn't be in it and he would be saved for the third. nolan never knows what he's doing in advance, but he didn't kill scarecrow in BB, and ra's could still be alive, probably not. so yeah, joker being thrown off a building and being caught to stress that batman won't kill him might be trying to out do burton, but out of all the nods to B89 that's probably the only one. all the others can be seen as either out of respect, or it's batman so there are going to be some similarities regardless.
I agree with Nolan. I get the concept of making it an 'one off' complete film, but I view killing The Joker as an epic mistake. It is something that just doesn't happen. You don't have to kill off Batman's nemesis to round off a film.
Quote from: fotimac1 on Wed, 30 Jul 2008, 02:17
nolan has said that burton's biggest mistake was killing off the joker, batman's greatest nemesis.
Illustrating his ability to miss the point. B89 was Batman vs. the Joker, winner take all. It was war and only one of 'em could walk away. Burton made no attempt to set the Joker up as an ongoing character on the 50/50 chance Nicholson might return (of which there was no guarantee at the time), especially since it conflicted with what he and Hamm thought was meant to be all out war between two characters who are so different and, yet, so similar.
In any case, between Ghul and Two Face, Nolan's record is hardly clean. If he feels that seriously about it, he should take his own advice.
Quotesomeone said how it was a "complete film" and they didn't know how good or bad it was going to do so they couldn't leave it open for a sequel, but you don't have to leave a movie open for a sequel by killing the bad guy. just so everyone's clear, the dark knight was almost not made.
It's an action movie clich? to kill at least one villain of a movie... and the reason for that is because it works.
Quotenolan does one movie at a time, and when he was filming BB he has no knowledge of where the next movie would go if at all.
I was under the impression Goyer mapped out a trilogy and Nolan would be working from that. That impression is strengthened by Goyer's story development credit in TDK.