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I reckon the saddest moment out of both films was Selina Kyle suffering from a mental breakdown and destroys her apartment - right after she survived Max Shreck's attempt to kill her. It's really a gut-wrenching scene. Especially telling how she destroys her stuffed toys and dollhouse as if she lost her childhood too, upon becoming Catwoman.

Thoughts? Are there other sad scenes that I didn't mention in the poll?

I voted for the death of Bruce's parents which is a powerfully shot moment in the Burton film.

I'm not sure if the Joker's death deserves to be there.  Was he really that tragic?

Also, was anyone left upset by the Ice Princess's unnecessary death or was she too silly a person to consider tragic?

What makes one character's death more tragic than another's?  It' a serious question.  Not a judgement.  And I'm fascinated to read other posters' thoughts.  :)

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 14:57

I'm not sure if the Joker's death deserves to be there.  Was he really that tragic?

The only part that was 'tragic' about the Joker's demise was there would be no more laughs at his antics. But Joker was far from tragic - unless people argue that his descent into complete insanity after his fall into the chemical waste is tragic in some way.

The scene with Selina having a mental breakdown, like I said, is sad because of how fragile one's psyche can be that it reaches at a boiling point and she sheds away everything about herself that was child-like into becoming more edgy.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 14:57
I voted for the death of Bruce's parents which is a powerfully shot moment in the Burton film.

I'm not sure if the Joker's death deserves to be there.  Was he really that tragic?

Also, was anyone left upset by the Ice Princess's unnecessary death or was she too silly a person to consider tragic?

What makes one character's death more tragic than another's?  It' a serious question.  Not a judgement.  And I'm fascinated to read other posters' thoughts.  :)

I must admit I've always thought the Ice Princess' fate was more "black comedy". The way she hits the ground and the dumbstruck reactions from the Mayor and his aides just makes it kinda funny for me. The Penguin's to blame for triggering such reaction with the hilarious line: "RATS WITH WINGS DO YER THINGS!".

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 13:32
I reckon the saddest moment out of both films was Selina Kyle suffering from a mental breakdown and destroys her apartment - right after she survived Max Shreck's attempt to kill her. It's really a gut-wrenching scene. Especially telling how she destroys her stuffed toys and dollhouse as if she lost her childhood too, upon becoming Catwoman.

Thoughts? Are there other sad scenes that I didn't mention in the poll?

I had the exact same reaction as a kid to her destroying her childhood items. Found it extremely disturbing when I was five lol Danny Elfman's tragic music hightens it all to a "t". That for me is the greatest scene in the Batman films because it's really the only time we truly witness a Bat villain completely break down and descend into their madness. EVERY Batman foe has had a dark moment like that as we all know.

The only other time they did a similar thing was in The Dark Knight where they had Harvey Dent scream (albeit silently) at the site of his scarred coin and the memory of Rachael. And you know he's completed his transformation into Two Face. It too was a powerful moment that almost reached the scale of the Selina scene.

But it's Oswald Cobblepot who defines tragic for me everytime. Can't believe Devito was nominated for a Razzie award for his amazing work. How stupid was that? Him visiting his parents grave tugged on my heartstrings. I think it's the scene that introduced me to the notion that one day your parents will "leave you". Now having lost my own dad it really hits home (as does Johnathan Kent's death scene in the first Superman). For me it's the thought of him being alone in the world that frightened me as a kid. Plus the fact people keep leaving him (his henchmen ditch him at the end and even the family of penguins). Therefore he dies alone and abandoned as he was at birth. His life one big circle of tragedy. I always imagined Batman on watching his death understood that in some way and this is why he chooses to "bear witness". It not just triumphantly seeing the fall of the bad guy. And they say Burton Bat films aren't deep enough! Ppfft.

Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 15:38

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 14:57
I voted for the death of Bruce's parents which is a powerfully shot moment in the Burton film.

I'm not sure if the Joker's death deserves to be there.  Was he really that tragic?

Also, was anyone left upset by the Ice Princess's unnecessary death or was she too silly a person to consider tragic?

What makes one character's death more tragic than another's?  It' a serious question.  Not a judgement.  And I'm fascinated to read other posters' thoughts.  :)

I must admit I've always thought the Ice Princess' fate was more "black comedy". The way she hits the ground and the dumbstruck reactions from the Mayor and his aides just makes it kinda funny for me. The Penguin's to blame for triggering such reaction with the hilarious line: "RATS WITH WINGS DO YER THINGS!".

You may be right Cobblepot4Mayor but what makes her unnecessary fate a joke and some of the other character's fates sad and tragic?  She's still a human-being so why is her death funny and the other characters' deaths sad?  I'm not saying you're wrong.  I'm just curious about how it works.  :)

split down the center.

An additional small melancholy moment: Bruce moping in his study while everyone else celebrates Christmas.

Quote from: Nycteris on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 20:57
An additional small melancholy moment: Bruce moping in his study while everyone else celebrates Christmas.

I like this one.  :)

Although they weren't celebrating by the time we see him.  ;)  And not 'everyone' was even celebrating to begin with (at least not the Penguin or Selina).

But it's a great pick nonetheless and I agree with the overall sentiment.  Almost everyone else but him is enjoying Christmas.

Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 16:03


I had the exact same reaction as a kid to her destroying her childhood items. Found it extremely disturbing when I was five lol Danny Elfman's tragic music hightens it all to a "t". That for me is the greatest scene in the Batman films because it's really the only time we truly witness a Bat villain completely break down and descend into their madness. EVERY Batman foe has had a dark moment like that as we all know.

If you mean a character who was once innocent who completely falls apart and becomes insane, then yes, that's exactly what I meant too. Jack Napier staring at his own reflection in the mirror and having a psychotic breakdown may have been creepy too, but he was already a heinous human being long before he became the Joker. With Selina Kyle though, she transforms from this quirky office girl into something more deranged and seductive, yet sympathetic at the same time. And Elfman's butterfly toy box-like music definitely captures the mood of that scene; really heartbreaking stuff.  :(

Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 16:03
The only other time they did a similar thing was in The Dark Knight where they had Harvey Dent scream (albeit silently) at the site of his scarred coin and the memory of Rachael. And you know he's completed his transformation into Two Face. It too was a powerful moment that almost reached the scale of the Selina scene.

Unfortunately, I disagree. Any sympathy for Harvey Dent got flushed down the toilet as soon as he quickly became the second villain of the movie, as well as being manipulated by the Joker - despite that Joker was the one who a played a part in Harvey and Rachel's tragic outcomes. It would've made a lot more sense if Harvey's descent to madness was gradual and actually showed convincing signs of instability beforehand, instead of the rushed and illogical way it was done in the movie. It was such a piss-poor excuse for character development.

Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 16:03
But it's Oswald Cobblepot who defines tragic for me everytime. Can't believe Devito was nominated for a Razzie award for his amazing work. How stupid was that? Him visiting his parents grave tugged on my heartstrings. I think it's the scene that introduced me to the notion that one day your parents will "leave you". Now having lost my own dad it really hits home (as does Johnathan Kent's death scene in the first Superman). For me it's the thought of him being alone in the world that frightened me as a kid. Plus the fact people keep leaving him (his henchmen ditch him at the end and even the family of penguins). Therefore he dies alone and abandoned as he was at birth. His life one big circle of tragedy. I always imagined Batman on watching his death understood that in some way and this is why he chooses to "bear witness". It not just triumphantly seeing the fall of the bad guy. And they say Burton Bat films aren't deep enough! Ppfft.

And of course, Penguin's death tops off the sombre mood of the movie; no contrived happy endings here. Not only did Batman lose another chance at happiness, but he had to be proven right that the freak with a sob story had a grotesque agenda all along, whose demise was a poetic end to a very sad life.

People can complain about the plot in Burton's films, but they're only kidding themselves if they say the characters are simple.

My condolences for your dad's death by the way.

*hugs copplepot4mayor*

i nearly voted for selina's transformation but i was so torn between it and and bruce trying in vain to save her. that was the bitter end though so i picked it as most tragic. it is sort of like mask of the phantasm, when he is telling alfred he couldn't save her. "i don't think she wanted to be saved." and its true for both of them. they had fallen so deep into that pit that not even bruce, the greatest hero and a man who truly loved them and they loved him back, could pull them back out because they didn't WANT to be pulled back out. there will be no happy endings, no fairy tales. it was too late for selina...at least in this lifetime.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 31 Jan  2014, 21:48
I like this one.  :)

Although they weren't celebrating by the time we see him.  ;)  And not 'everyone' was even celebrating to begin with (at least not the Penguin or Selina).

But it's a great pick nonetheless and I agree with the overall sentiment.  Almost everyone else but him is enjoying Christmas.

Oswald and Selina are mirror images of Bruce, aren't they? :)

Selina Kyle's mental breakdown is the most confronting, in your face moment of the Burton duology. I've watched the film with others, and this is the scene that really hits them. Elfman's cue is right up there with his best of all time. It's one of twisting torment. The scene is magnified by watching the tame apartment entry sequence moments before. The before and after list can be done in the same way as Jack Napier/The Joker's. I'll have to do one of those at some point.

I just thought about Max Shreck for a second. Does anybody else find it sad that despite how heinous and manipulative he was, Shreck still had the humanity in him to convince Penguin to take him instead of Chip? Even though he was a cold-blooded bastard, Shreck sacrificed himself to save his son like a loving father would; without trying to run away from the consequences for dealing with the Penguin.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu,  6 Feb  2014, 03:52
I just thought about Max Shreck for a second. Does anybody else find it sad that despite how heinous and manipulative he was, Shreck still had the humanity in him to convince Penguin to take him instead of Chip? Even though he was a cold-blooded bastard, Shreck sacrificed himself to save his son like a loving father would; without trying to run away from the consequences for dealing with the Penguin.

So true. I also get the impression Max thought he'd wiggle his way out of it. And he did. Luring the monkey, getting out of the cage and acquiring the gun. He was confused as to why Selina didn't go down and just kept firing and hoping. Which is quite understandable.