Inspired by a combination of Doc's "Fix the film" thread in The Dark Knight Rises forum and discussions with Silver Nemesis on the previous drafts of Batman Returns and Bruce's arc, I thought I'd open up this thread and, eventually, one for each film.
Basically, if you had final rewrite on the movie, what would you have done differently?
Like Doc's TDK Rises thread, you have to stick to the general framework of the film (so this will still have to be Batman vs. Penguin, Catwoman, and Max Shreck in Gotham at Christmastime.).
A few links to Silver's ideas on enhancing Bruce Wayne's role:
http://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=2458.msg36300#msg36300
http://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=2443.0
I'd need to dig it up but I remember a draft (by Waters?) where Selina and many other characters had more witty lines. "How can you be so mean to someone so meaningless?" and lines like that. I'm blanking on specifics but I'm positive that draft is out there. I'm largely happy with the movie as it is but I might've liked more of that snappy dialogue in there. What we have is fine but if we were looking to PERFECT this thing, eh, that'd be my choice.
If I were change something, I'd change the ending shot.
I'd prefer to just leave it as seeing Catwoman's shadow. And by removing her appearance at the end, we remove the whole 'what on Earth is she standing on?' goof.
I'd have a mix of the comic adaption ending. Bruce and Alfred drive off ala the movie, pan up to the Gotham skyline. The batsignal turns on. But soon after the power goes out all across Gotham, and dissolves into the end credits.
My only change would be Batman saving the Ice Princess.
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Sat, 10 Aug 2013, 07:02
My only change would be Batman saving the Ice Princess.
But how's the tree now going to get lit up? ;)
Maybe Chip Schreck could light it. :D
i can't think of anything i would change. i hate the ice princess' fate but i've accepted it as just part of the plot.
i would like to know how michelle would have looked in tim's first draft of the costume. it had rips and tears from the get go instead of being solid and then becoming tattered as the movie went along. the shoulders were ripped out and there was a big tear on the stomach.
Quote from: Catwoman on Sat, 10 Aug 2013, 15:38
i can't think of anything i would change. i hate the ice princess' fate but i've accepted it as just part of the plot.
Yes, I wished she survived too but if she had the whole Batman being framed sub-plot would have been resolved too early in the film's running time (not that it was ever truly resolve at all in the end... ::) ). I know the Ice Princess is an absolute idiot but even she would be able to distinguish Batman from an 'ugly bird-man with fish-breath' were she questioned by the police.
Also, I definitely would have kept the bit from the original screenplay and novelisation where the Ice Princess shoves a little old lady to the ground during the Red Triangle Gang's rampage at the first tree-lighting ceremony. It would have made her subsequent fate slightly less upsetting (since there would at least be an element of 'poetic justice') and would reinforce the idea that Gotham City is a world based on lies, deception and image, where a beautiful woman adored by the public possesses a less admirable side (besides her utter stupidity) away from the cameras, and a world where the stronger and more privileged treat the weaker (in this case a little old lady) with utter disdain simply because they can.
I would have also kept the excised part of the original screenplay where Chip goes to investigate Selina's apartment on behalf of his suspicious father and ends up caught in a trap she has concocted via her Murphy Bed. Chip never gets any type of comeuppance in the film despite it being heavily implied that he is well aware of his father's murderous actions so I rather like this moment. Of course he isn't killed but he is at least made to look foolish. Unfortunately I can't find the screenplay with this scene anywhere on the net but I'm sure it still exists somewhere.
Instead of killing off both of The Penguin's parents I'd have kept one still alive and him encounter that parent on his return to Gotham as an adult. Maybe to inherit the fortune that's rightfully his? It may have been interesting to have seen The Penguin question their actions and end perhaps with his own killing of that parent in revenge lol I always thought the Cobblepot mansion was so such a good designed house and I always wanted to see it later in the movie. The Penguin returning home and using it as a base for the first half of the movie? It may have been a great location for a Batman fight scene.
I wanted to see The Penguin encounter Bruce Wayne himself as there are obvious great parallels (as highlighted by Paul Dini on the documentary). Maybe they did things more subtle in the final film but I now think it was a missed opportunity to bring Bruce Wayne into the wealthier side of The Penguin's public face and explore that.
I'd also have kept the angle of Max as the golden boy second son of the Cobblepot's. I'm gutted they tossed this aspect out. One of the complaints (made by film critics Siskel and Ebert) was Max wasn't too interesting and got in the way of the main plot. I've no idea how you find Christopher Walken uninteresting but by keeping this brother idea it may have helped his purpose in the eyes of reviewers.
Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Sun, 11 Aug 2013, 12:12
Instead of killing off both of The Penguin's parents I'd have kept one still alive and him encounter that parent on his return to Gotham as an adult. Maybe to inherit the fortune that's rightfully his?
The Penguin was a dark mirror of Bruce. Both lost their parents. One was loved and inherited the money. One was rejected and received nothing but a sewer upbringing. It all comes to a head in the subtle scene of Bruce is watching the news report. You can see his mind ticking over about the situation. "His parents...I hope he find them." Both parent deaths shape their futures and mindsets.
I'd include the roller coaster sequence from Waters' draft, just to get a little more action during the finale.
QuoteI wanted to see The Penguin encounter Bruce Wayne himself as there are obvious great parallels (as highlighted by Paul Dini on the documentary). Maybe they did things more subtle in the final film but I now think it was a missed opportunity to bring Bruce Wayne into the wealthier side of The Penguin's public face and explore that.
I've never thought about this before, but that's actually a great suggestion. I liked the fact we got to see Bruce meet Napier in the first film, and it would have been cool to have a similar scene with Cobblepot in this movie. It would have added extra symmetry to the "thing's change" scene, like the two mistletoe scenes had.
Another thing I'd have changed about Batman Returns would be to increase the police presence throughout the movie. The GCPD make a weak attempt to quell the riot at the start of the film, but aside from that they just stand by and let the Red Triangle Gang run amok in the streets. I know this was meant to convey the ineffectiveness of the police force, but later on they show the cops coming out in full force to pursue Batman. Where were those cops earlier in the movie when the Penguin's thugs were terrorising people? They could have shown some police cars arriving on the scene at the beginning of the second riot, only to be shot to pieces by the Penguin's goons.
A simple way of increasing the police presence in the film would be to add GCPD dirigibles over the city like in Batman: The Animated Series. This would've been a nice nod to early Golden Age stories like 'Batman Wars Against the Dirigible of Doom' (Detective Comics #33, November 1939), as well as an indicator that the GCPD were at least
trying to keep the city safe. The dirigibles could also have been incorporated into certain scenes in the movie.
For example, I've always felt there was a distinct lack of urgency in the scene were Batman escapes from the rooftop using his glider cape. The cops are after him, but they're nowhere to be seen. I'd have had a dirigible appear overhead just as Batman is plucking Catwoman's claw from his armour. It shines a searchlight on him and the pilot calls down from the address system and tells him to surrender. Batman then goes and stands on the wall like he does in the finished film. The pilot says "we have him now" and positions the searchlight directly above him. It would look as though Batman was trapped inside the pillar of light. But to the pilot's surprise, his costume would sprout glider wings and he'd dive off the roof. You'd then have that wonderful shot of Batman gliding down into the plaza, only now with the dirigible hovering in front of the full moon up above. Visually it would look great.
I'd also add a blimp to the scene where the Red Triangle Gang are stealing the children. You'd have to show the police at least trying to stop them, so I'd have several dirigibles hovering overhead and shining searchlights down into the streets. Suddenly all the searchlights converge on a single spot, drawing all the Red Triangle Gang members' attentions to that one focal point. Then we'd get a POV shot of their perspective, staring up into the blinding light as the silhouette of a bat descends on them from above. We'd then cut to another Red Triangle Gang train (let's face it, they'd need more than one to steal all the firstborn children in the city) where we see Batman's shadow appearing on the wall, just like it does in the finished film. There'd be a little montage showing him stopping all the trains and it would end with him throwing the final gang member inside one of the cages, locking the door and then throwing the keys to Gordon as he and the other cops arrive and take over.
Having Gordon show up at the end of that sequence would also allow for a conversation between him and Batman where the latter is exonerated of the charges against him.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 11 Aug 2013, 15:47
QuoteI wanted to see The Penguin encounter Bruce Wayne himself as there are obvious great parallels (as highlighted by Paul Dini on the documentary). Maybe they did things more subtle in the final film but I now think it was a missed opportunity to bring Bruce Wayne into the wealthier side of The Penguin's public face and explore that.
I've never thought about this before, but that's actually a great suggestion. I liked the fact we got to see Bruce meet Napier in the first film, and it would have been cool to have a similar scene with Cobblepot in this movie. It would have added extra symmetry to the "thing's change" scene, like the two mistletoe scenes had.
I agree. In view of their similar backgrounds it's odd that the Penguin/Oswald is one of the few villains who has no connection to Bruce Wayne outside of their 'in costume' confrontations. It's a shame that Oswald never appeared during Max's meeting with Bruce. Another mid-film party scene or social gathering of some type would also have been a welcome way to get all the main characters interacting in a room together in their day-to-day guises. Alternatively, perhaps Bruce could show up at an 'Oswald for mayor' rally and publicly question the candidate's intentions.
Instead of the "kill the firstborns" plan being stopped so abruptly to make way for the penguin army, I'd combine the two: the penguins are sent out to blow things up and distract the cops while the Circus Gang steals the children. Batman would save the kids and take them to Gordon, clearing his name in the process, then head underground to shut the penguins down.
This wouldn't have been necessary, but it might have been interesting had Harvey Dent gone from DA to the mayor of Gotham; that would have brought Billy Dee back and made it harder for them to drop him in the future.
Here's another idea: make Penguin have Schreck's role (as in make him an aristocrat from the get-go and not the sewer monster)and add Harvey Dent and Sal Maroni to the mix.
I don't know if I'd change it so much as to just tone down Max Shreck's role. I remember Siskel and Ebert saying "Max Shreck shouldn't even be in this picture"... but I can see why they used him as a catalyst to trigger the emergence of Catwoman and help Penguin's rise to glory. I think they were forgetting that Penguin had Max by the balls right from the get go... I guess Penguin never really expected Max to walk out on him, and he must've figured if he was going to go down that Max would go with him.
I like the "thrown away down the sewer" aspect that Burton gave the Penguin. It made him tragic of course, and I think gives one a little bit of sympathy for the character (just like the awesome Mr. Freeze from BTAS - you feel for the guy). I don't know how else Burton could've made Catwoman come to light (or life)... but it seems to me that if Penguin was just an aristocrat and Catwoman had been just a cat burglar/thief that you'd end up with a possibly less interesting film, and something more similar to what Nolan perhaps would've done.
Quote from: zDBZ on Wed, 14 Aug 2013, 01:30
Instead of the "kill the firstborns" plan being stopped so abruptly to make way for the penguin army, I'd combine the two: the penguins are sent out to blow things up and distract the cops while the Circus Gang steals the children. Batman would save the kids and take them to Gordon, clearing his name in the process, then head underground to shut the penguins down.
That is a great idea! I always thought that the scene where Vincent Schiavelli being pulled up by Batman only - for the scene to be cut off right to the next one to be very underwhelming. Having the two subplots intertwine would have made some great tension.
Now, I may have said that Returns is my second favourite live action Batman movie, but if I was forced to make only one significant change, then I would agree with others into giving Harvey Dent a more prominent role that would pave the way for Two-Face in the sequel. I liked zDBZ's idea of Dent becoming a mayor, but maybe if Dent was in the running of an election campaign against Cobblepot, and Cobblepot had him disfigured by corrupt police officials, then maybe it could convincingly transform Dent into his Two-Face persona for a sequel.
I'd also show Batman coming to terms that his thirst for vengeance isn't improving his state of mind, just to make his condemnation of Catwoman's stance over the law in the end more understandable.
Another thing, I'd add that bit between Gordon and the Mayor in the ending of the comic adaptation -
Quote
Mayor: "You'll think he'll ever forgive us [for believing Batman was responsible for the Ice Princess' murder]?"
Gordon: "No. But he'll always be there for us."
By the way, the dialogue was said by the other way around, but I thought Gordon saying "he'll always be there for us" makes more sense since he always stayed loyal to Batman.
I don't think we should have got the Bat-signal at the end. Keep Batman a fugitive and still wanted for questioning regarding the Ice Princess's murder. Batman 3 could then be partly about Batman trying to clear and restore his name, possibly with the assistance of Harvey Dent who might not be DA anymore but is instead a regular defence attorney working against the current regime. Bring back Catwoman too. She's the only one who can really clear Batman's name and it will allow for further scope into their relationship.