What was the Joker's movitation in B89?
Some say he had no plot and doesn't show an interest in Batman until later in the film, others say he doesn't need a plot - he just wants to kill people.
I think that everything the Joker did was to get at Batman.
His first task as the Joker (after taking over the gangs) was to send Bob out to see what Knox knew about Batman.
He then became sidetracked by Vicki Vale by used the opportunity to see what Vicki knew about Batman. When Batman shows up at the museum however I am not sure whether the Joker assumes Batman has been following him or he has a connection to Vicki.
Joker showing up at Vicki's apartment may have been a double edged sword - to see Vicki and to provoke the Batman to appear (he does look around the apartment when he arrives - although that may have been to mirror Bruces arrival earlier).
The tv announcement and killing the crowds with smilex gas was another attempt to provoke Batman.
But the question really is? Does the Joker ever want to kill Batman or just taunt him indefinitely creating chaos in Gotham - after all, he doesn't try to kick Batman off the ledge during the finale, just scare him. In that case, does the Joker feel he can't live without Batman?
Since B89 centered on Batman and the Joker mirroring each other, I would say that the Joker's main motivation is the same as Batman's...revenge. So I think you are on the right track, but I do think the Joker wanted to kill Batman, and perhaps thought he did when he brought down the Batwing. Again, I go with the mirror analogy, Batman tells the Joker in the cathedral he is going to kill him, I imply from that the Joker wanted to do the same to Batman.
Everything he does is to stroke his ego, until Batman interferes in his new plans, and he then decides to direct his efforts at stopping the "freak."
Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Thu, 26 Jun 2008, 16:13
Everything he does is to stroke his ego, until Batman interferes in his new plans, and he then decides to direct his efforts at stopping the "freak."
I had always thought that too, but then i remembered that his first order to Bob was to find out about the Bat - suggesting it was his main obsession to get the Batman and confront him about dropping him into the vat of chemicals.
When the Joker takes control of the city, his plans are to 'run this city into the ground'.
From what I understand because of his 'deformity' he wants to punish all of Gotham for his accident. He is also a sadist, so he's probably getting pleasure and a kick out of it. After all he is psychotic. Thats why he is poisoning Gothams beauty products. (If you were to analyise it a bit deeper, you could say he has a love/hate relationship with women. Look at what he done to Alicia, then the way he treated Vicki. Plus the majority of people killed by the smylex had to be women as they would have used the beauty products a lot more than men).
You could say he had revenge on his mind considering he did want to know about this Bat-Man. He kind of had a score to settle for dropping him in the acid. Then when Batman started foiling his plans, it did become, maybe not an obsession, a game to the Joker do deafeat Batman. I think secretly he actually admired Batman for cracking his 'poison code' and saving Vicki from the museum with those 'wonderful toys!' In the end he offers Batman to a showdown on the streets of Gotham. Ultimately this is a challenge to see who would control Gotham forever, whoever was the last man standing, and we all know who that was!
I dig what you are saying Joker81. Pretty accurate assumption.
Although i still think that at the very least Batman was on his "to-do" list from the start and not an afterthought.
Oh yeah of course he was Raleagh, but I dont think the Joker really took him seriously until the foil planning started! lol But thanks by the way.
I love when the Joker says in the cathedral "You dropped me into that vat of chemicals, that wasnt easy to get over and dont think that i didnt try!"
I never understood what he meant by "and dont think that i didnt try" until now- i think.
Wat he means is , he looks like a clown so he became a clown lol, thats how he delt with his deformity, and its like hes looking for some sort of medal for it, or credit for it lol
i believe Burton portrayed Jack Napier as someone lost in his vanity, he believe he is the best on what he do (and maybe he is) on his first scene we can see that on his talking with Alicia. then when he realize that was betrayed, he looks for vengeance by killing Grissom and Gotham citizens with their own sicness: vanity and greed: by poisoning the beauty products and people dont care if he is a killer he is giving free money; i believe the joker is trying to punish "gotham's sinners" in his own terms
Yeah I agree with most of what your saying, although the Joker is self obsessed, so I think the vanity is more on his part. and since he is scarred/deformed he wants everyone else to be so hes prettier/normal looking lol
Look what he done to Alicia. Why did he do it? Because she was beautiful, so he wanted to turn her into a freak, like him. And because hes a maniac and sadist, probably enjoyed it too.
So the punishment on Gotham is because he lost his looks, you are quite right to point out about Jack Napier at the start of the movie. But if you watch Jack is a man very concerned about his looks. He is very vain. Stanting looking in the morror, checking his hair, his tie, and clothes.
Yeah the greed thing is interesting. Hes showing how fickle the people of Gotham actually are, they know he murdered god knows how many people, yet they still flock to him when hes throwing out wades of cash!
I never thought of the whole revenge on Batman thing but that makes sense. Just look at the way he reacts to seeing the article in the newspaper.
I also think he wants attention. Why else would he be so theatrical about everything. If he wanted to he could have just place gas cannisters all over the city without anyone finding out until it was too late. But instead he decided to throw a big parade with floats and music and lots of money.
Finally, he's just crazy!
Yeah the Joker/Jack Napier was just so far gone into complete psychosis that it would probably be difficult to explain his motivations. He is after all a lunatic.
I know it had mostly to do with Jack's revenge on Batman primarily for dropping him into the acid (even though it was on accident) in axis chemicals.
I mean really other than that, it just gives The Joker more of a reason in the film to cause chaos be muderous, and be his normal Joker self definitly not as much of a plot to his actions as Heath's Joker.
We had this thread some time before. But I cant be bothered going into it again.
But what I will say is this, the perception that TDK has built (which I think is a weak part in that movie) that the Joker doesnt want to kill Batman and he needs Batman does NOT come into Batman 89! The Joker wanted to kill Batman. He was the only one in his way of having complete control of Gotham Ciy. (this is the conflict in my own mind of the sub-plot in TDK that Joker will not kill Batman - it just doesnt make sense to me, it verged on the ridiculas - thus making the Joker far less threatening to Batman and the general feeling of the whole movie. If Batman wont kill anyone! And Joker wont kill Batman, its less interesting. I dont care about the plebs of Gotham getting shot or blew up every 20 minutes.)
Anyway, Joker does want to kill Batman to me, just like in Batman #1 back in 1940!
"We've got a flying mouse to kill! And I wanna clean my claws!"
Quote from: Joker81 on Tue, 7 Oct 2008, 19:24
We had this thread some time before. But I cant be bothered going into it again.
It's the same thread ;)
Lol, thanks Raleagh! I better stay off the drugs! lol Or get back on them one or the other! lol
I'll maybe try that smylex! ;D
Quote from: Joker81 on Tue, 7 Oct 2008, 22:34
Lol, thanks Raleagh! I better stay off the drugs! lol Or get back on them one or the other! lol
I'll maybe try that smylex! ;D
;D ;D ;D don't use brand x!
Quote from: Joker81 on Tue, 7 Oct 2008, 19:24
We had this thread some time before. But I cant be bothered going into it again.
But what I will say is this, the perception that TDK has built (which I think is a weak part in that movie) that the Joker doesnt want to kill Batman and he needs Batman does NOT come into Batman 89! The Joker wanted to kill Batman. He was the only one in his way of having complete control of Gotham Ciy. (this is the conflict in my own mind of the sub-plot in TDK that Joker will not kill Batman - it just doesnt make sense to me, it verged on the ridiculas - thus making the Joker far less threatening to Batman and the general feeling of the whole movie. If Batman wont kill anyone! And Joker wont kill Batman, its less interesting. I dont care about the plebs of Gotham getting shot or blew up every 20 minutes.)
Anyway, Joker does want to kill Batman to me, just like in Batman #1 back in 1940!
"We've got a flying mouse to kill! And I wanna clean my claws!"
If you read a vast amount of Batman comics through the years, then you'll find that The Joker really dosent want to kill Batman because he has most of his fun taunting him and making hell for him to deal with ( hmmm thats odd just like The Joker does in TDK).
Theres so many interpretations of this character throughout the years its kinda hard to say what The Joker's initial motives are, most of the time complete chaos is his number 1 thing he likes to do.
He's The Joker. Does he need a motivation? He lives for chaos.
Yes Darkvengence, I dont like that subplot motive that the Joker doesnt kill batman because he is 'fun'. Its a ridiculas notion and takes the ruthless out of the character. That must have been thought up for 'the kids'.
But getting back to my point, and the fact that TDK Joker was supposed to be based on his first appearance, as in Batman #1 - he wanted to KILL batman in that comic.
And as for chaos, that seems to be a new word tdk fanboys have learned since the 24th of July 2008!
Quote from: Joker81 on Thu, 9 Oct 2008, 20:40
Yes Darkvengence, I dont like that subplot motive that the Joker doesnt kill batman because he is 'fun'. Its a ridiculas notion and takes the ruthless out of the character. That must have been thought up for 'the kids'.
But getting back to my point, and the fact that TDK Joker was supposed to be based on his first appearance, as in Batman #1 - he wanted to KILL batman in that comic.
And as for chaos, that seems to be a new word tdk fanboys have learned since the 24th of July 2008!
LOL It has not one thing to do with children, didnt you ever read the article with Nolan saying "This isnt a movie for kids"? Please seriously look up your facts before making foolhardy statements.
Go back and read atleast 4 Joker comics from every decade and you'll see Im right, if you find the "Batman in the 40's" and etc. you'll see what Im talking about, otherwise you have no real facts to back yourself up, and hating on TDK just makes you look, well.....silly.
Quote from: DarkVengeance on Thu, 9 Oct 2008, 23:18
Quote from: Joker81 on Thu, 9 Oct 2008, 20:40
Yes Darkvengence, I dont like that subplot motive that the Joker doesnt kill batman because he is 'fun'. Its a ridiculas notion and takes the ruthless out of the character. That must have been thought up for 'the kids'.
But getting back to my point, and the fact that TDK Joker was supposed to be based on his first appearance, as in Batman #1 - he wanted to KILL batman in that comic.
And as for chaos, that seems to be a new word tdk fanboys have learned since the 24th of July 2008!
LOL It has not one thing to do with children, didnt you ever read the article with Nolan saying "This isnt a movie for kids"? Please seriously look up your facts before making foolhardy statements.
Go back and read atleast 4 Joker comics from every decade and you'll see Im right, if you find the "Batman in the 40's" and etc. you'll see what Im talking about, otherwise you have no real facts to back yourself up, and hating on TDK just makes you look, well.....silly.
Ah HELLO! Anybody home Nolonite? It was 'thought up for the kids' because comic books were thought too violent for kids - so it was toned down! Do you know anything about the history of comics???
Ya I obviously do, quite a bit more than you, and "ite" after any word just dosent fit my style especially after a directors name. There are things about every film I like that I dont like (Including 89, BR, BF, BB, and TDK among craploads of others), Im very picky about things, Im sorry you can settle for things and be totally satisfied and I cant.
There has been way to many versions of The Joker over the years, to say that one is more real then the movie is just silly. But all in all the Batman89 Joker prob had a stronger arch-enemy to Batman feel to it then The Dark Knight's Joker although he was so exellent he just seemed like just another villain in that movie not Batman's true enemy.
But Dark Knight said it best when he said
"He's The Joker. Does he need a motivation? He lives for chaos"
Yeah Sandman, thats what I like about the Joker in Batman 89, Batman has a true reason for the Joker being his arch nemesis.
In the Dark Knight, what is Batmans reason for the Joker being his arch nemesis?
Hes just another looney criminal. Its nothing personal. Doesnt seem there is one.
Quote from: Joker81 on Sun, 12 Oct 2008, 14:42
Yeah Sandman, thats what I like about the Joker in Batman 89, Batman has a true reason for the Joker being his arch nemesis.
In the Dark Knight, what is Batmans reason for the Joker being his arch nemesis?
Hes just another looney criminal. Its nothing personal. Doesnt seem there is one.
it dosent have to be personal, its Batman overcoming more and more stonger and worse challenges, thats personally what I would like to see have Batman go through, new challenges, not the same old ground tread on over and over again.
We have other interpretations to love, this one was different which is what makes it so amazing, personally I think being original and different make all the difference.
All I know is I wouldnt have wanted to see the same Joker from 89, in TDK.
No, we do not want to see the same joker from 89 in TDK, that would have been a disater.
But apart from the new interpratation of the Joker (as in look and style) in TDK, there was no character motivation or nothing to distingish the Joker from other villians fighting Batman in Nolans Batman universe. There was nothing to distingish that he is infact Batmans main adversay. He's just another crazy villian of Gotham like the scarecrow. There was no motive or plot to make him Batman's arch nemesis. Nothing new or original in that context!
In my opinion it is personal between Batman and Joker - that is why they dispise eachother and what they stand for. I dont buy the love/hate relationship.
He dosent have to be his arch enemy to be a good rival, your saying that things dont have to be comic accurate but yet your stuck on this, make up your mind on how exactly you would like things, comic accurate or you dont care, because as of now you seem truly confused.
Burtons choices on making The Joker the killer of Batmans parents was just cutting corners, yes It gave ultimate motivation for the film (and it worked perfectly) but Burton cut alot of corners in his films, just because he felt like it.
When someone says theyre making their own interpretation of something IM cool with that, but when they're basing it on comic book characters and they say ( we didnt really think if comic book fans would like this or not, OR CARE..."Daniel Waters") then Im not really gonna be that satisfied with something!
It had nothing todo with cutting corners. Burton had knew tha Joker was Batman arch nemesis but couldn't think of a way to show it, (which ended up being the problem with Nolan's Joker) so he made him the killer of Batman parents.
And yes it's not straight out of the comics but this is a movie it doesn't have to be the comic ripped out and placed on screen. He made Joker the killer of his parents and was a very awesome decision for HIS movie, worked exellently and made them alot more personal which worked just perfectly.
There werent any problems with The Joker in TDK, the way they left it was he was supposed to come back, and we know now he wont be.
Joker is a force of nature in TDK rather than a typical nemesis (ex. Doc oc in Spiderman2 or Magneto in the Xmen films) and I like it that way.
The way The Joker is portrayed in 89 is just as good to me, I like the interpretations equally, if they were very similar I wouldnt have liked it, just the same if Nicholsons Joker was alot like Romero's, I wouldnt like it.
I like when characters evolve, change and progress in new interpretations to me, it makes them better.
Quote from: Sandman on Mon, 13 Oct 2008, 06:24
It had nothing todo with cutting corners. Burton had knew tha Joker was Batman arch nemesis but couldn't think of a way to show it, (which ended up being the problem with Nolan's Joker) so he made him the killer of Batman parents.
And yes it's not straight out of the comics but this is a movie it doesn't have to be the comic ripped out and placed on screen. He made Joker the killer of his parents and was a very awesome decision for HIS movie, worked exellently and made them alot more personal which worked just perfectly.
Agreed Sandman! Me and you are on the same wavelength my friend! ;D
glad you guys are best friens now, it makes me feel even closer to the both of you! :'(
Well.. What can i say ;)
Love ya Sandman :-*
Ha ha ha
Right back at ya buddy :)
I feel so so alone that Im not in the middle of the sandwich with you two!
Joker didn't really have a motivation, but I like the Penguin's motivation in Returns. Kill all of Gotham's first born infants. Now that is cold.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 04:36
Joker didn't really have a motivation, but I like the Penguin's motivation in Returns. Kill all of Gotham's first born infants. Now that is cold.
The Penguin wants to kill for revenge and thats about it, after that whats his motive supposed to be?
His death makes sense after his scheme falls through, because you are right, it was personal for him. He would have nothing much else to do except try again in a different film, and repeating themselves in another film that won't be made is pointless.
Look at the Joker before and after his transformation. It's kind of interesting.
Jack killed people.
Joker killed people as a means of artistic and psychological expression.
Jack was vain.
Joker killed vain people with their own beauty products.
Jack idly wondered about taking over from Grissom at some point.
Joker blew Grissom (and, later, all of his buddies) away.
Jack was scared of Batman.
Joker was captivated by Batman and nearly killed him.
Jack placed strong importance on loyalty.
Joker killed his #1 guy.
Jack was mildly amused by the TV news.
Joker shot the TV.
It seems that the Joker was basically who Jack always was deep down inside but which his plunge into the acid brought to the fore. The Joker is Jack with all constraints lifted and with no pretense towards fitting in with the rest of society. Every idle thought or fantasy Jack may have had become top priorities for the Joker. There were no more restraints, the Joker simply did whatever he wanted.
Great post, colors.
I'd also like to add what he does to Alicia could very well have been a sick fantasy in Jack Napier's head that he brought to life when he became the Joker.
Brilliant post, colors.
I've dug up an ancient thread, but I was thinking about this topic the other day.
I do think there's more to the Batman/Joker relationship than a simple revenge story. Jack Napier is presented as a narcissist; when he is disfigured, he not only begins disfiguring everyone else, but he starts actively seeking the spotlight.
He gets into a war of showmanship with Batman, who's trying to avoid the press and avoid any real human contact, and yet still gets more headlines than the Joker. Myth and secrecy is a bigger mystery to people.
This Joker is out to "out-do" Batman in theatricality and absurdity - namely by killing people. Batman is struggling to find the pattern in his toxin, and gets unintentional headlines by opposing the Joker.
So beyond the revenge story, there is something of a combative relationship, similar to themes that have at some point or other appeared in the comics.