Not sure where to put this...
There's a rumor circulating that the next film featuring a Bat-appearance will be in a Justice League film in 2015. BoF reported it originally, but it has been picked up by other outlets as well. For now it's scuttlebutt---but it could be the direction they're going in.
If so, what would you like to see in a JL film? Do you think this is a good direction for WB to be going in?
To be honest, I'm happy for a JL film to be made, though I have some concerns about timing. 2015 isn't too far off, and much would seem to ride on the success of Man of Steel. Thoughts?
Ah, now I see where I could have put it.
Can an admin. kindly put this topic in a more sensible area? Sorry...
I'm cool with this news. I've been an advocate of a Justice League of America movie being used as a spring board for other franchises for quite some time now. I want a Justice League of America movie that emphasizes the science-fantasy approach inherent in comics. It needs to be a reality that can support all the characters, as opposed to focusing on just one or two and pushing everyone else to the background.
That said, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Nolan's leading proctologist is worried about a Batman reboot springing forth from the Justice League of America movie. "That would mean, gasp!, an icky, nasty shared universe!! Heavens, that has NEVER been successful, certainly not lately!"
Stupid people, I swear...
If *I* were the king of the universe.... ;)
I would have the JL film be a sequel to MoS. Let the story told have Superman act as an inspiration to others who have unique abilities, coming out of the woodwork, to work along side the last son of Krypton.
I would tease a villain who turned out to be Lex Luthor--though I would add in a red herring about a secret brother eye project. Let the final scenes introduce Batman. Maybe alone in the cave, to indicate the reboot is coming.
Either that OR
Make JLA really a 'world's finest' movie introducing the big trinity--and then at the end, have them bring others together to discuss forming JL. A JL begins kind of thing.
Either could work if in the right hands, of course. Like colorsblend, I'd like a world of story that embraced all the possible characters in the DCU, while telling a terrific tale.
QuoteThat said, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Nolan's leading proctologist is worried about a Batman reboot springing forth from the Justice League of America movie. "That would mean, gasp!, an icky, nasty shared universe!! Heavens, that has NEVER been successful, certainly not lately!"
Stupid people, I swear...
Seriously. There's this completely illogical assumption, from people like him, that bringing in more sci-fi elements will immediately put Batman in Schumacher territory and lighten him up. Has he seen the Timm-JL series? Batman from the BTAS world fits right in and isn't any worse of a character than before.
My thoughts from another board:
I don't even get Batman with Robin, so unless he's a distant advisor and once-in-a-blue-moon, emergencies only reserve member, Batman with the Justice League makes no sense to me. Even within the DCU, I have troubles understanding just what the League is for and where its boundaries lie (why does Superman have to sacrifice himself to stop Doomsday, and why does Batman have to stop Ra's al Ghul from blowing up the Lazurus Pits alone, when the League is supposedly meant for these big threats?) I don't really have a great interest in a film based on this concept unless they can come up with a threat serious enough to justify all these heroes coming together, and again, Batman's role in such a gathering is iffy - I'd prefer him to be Elrond, not Legolas.
That said, I don't fear for the survival of the series if Batman ends up in a JL film.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 31 Aug 2012, 01:58Seriously. There's this completely illogical assumption, from people like him, that bringing in more sci-fi elements will immediately put Batman in Schumacher territory and lighten him up. Has he seen the Timm-JL series? Batman from the BTAS world fits right in and isn't any worse of a character than before.
Well, let's grant the douchebag his premise for a minute. Let's say that's
exactly what Batman becomes after a Justice League of America film.
So what?
He and his little cult have their perfect trilogy now so what are they complaining about? Wasn't their mantra back in 2007 that Nolan should be allowed to finish his trilogy before anybody does a JLA flick? Well congratulations, he's finished it! Now bring on the JLA!
Quote from: zDBZ on Fri, 31 Aug 2012, 02:17My thoughts from another board:
I don't even get Batman with Robin, so unless he's a distant advisor and once-in-a-blue-moon, emergencies only reserve member, Batman with the Justice League makes no sense to me. Even within the DCU, I have troubles understanding just what the League is for and where its boundaries lie (why does Superman have to sacrifice himself to stop Doomsday, and why does Batman have to stop Ra's al Ghul from blowing up the Lazurus Pits alone, when the League is supposedly meant for these big threats?) I don't really have a great interest in a film based on this concept unless they can come up with a threat serious enough to justify all these heroes coming together, and again, Batman's role in such a gathering is iffy - I'd prefer him to be Elrond, not Legolas.
That said, I don't fear for the survival of the series if Batman ends up in a JL film.
If we can buy into the idea of an archer helping to turn back the alien invasion in Avengers, Batman fighting alongside the JLA should be an easy enough sell.
A few thoughts here, though I know this is coming from the realm of personal preference:
I can take Batman: Loner. Batman with Robin. And Batman: JLU Member.
Why?
Batman: loner gives us the opportunity to see how Batman behaves as a master detective. There's a moment by moment interaction of the World's Greatest Detective examining crime scenes, coming to conclusions that even great men like Gordon haven't gotten to yet, while also exploring the various components of his fractured internal workings.
Batman and Robin show us the mentor side of Batman, something that has been really short-changed in all of the live action films. I want to see the student become the teacher, and be the sole trainer of his partner. In doing so, his partner is given a different kind of growth and bonding experience than Bruce had.
Batman JLU: Look, the JL is mostly man-Gods. We have very few mutants as we've seen in the Marvel Universe. They are great beings from other planets, other dimensions, other planes, and..okay, the Flash. Who I love, but I guess is technically a mutant....eyes 'backspace key..' ...eh, you get the point.
Why is Batman there? He's the smartest human being in the world. In fact, he's usually several steps ahead of Superman (no intellectual slouch himself), Wonder Woman, and all the rest. While not physically infallible, the JL needs his intellect. His inclusion in the JLU Timm-verse is absolutely vital for this very reason.
One of the things that irked me in the last Nolan film was 'Batman could be anybody.' That's not quite true. Anybody *could* be Batman if they were remarkable--like Bruce Wayne. JL operates better for it.
I think you could argue it goes even deeper than all that. Wonder Woman came to man's world and became a superhero. The Flash was doused in chemicals and lightning, boom, superspeed, so he became a superhero. Superman was sent to Earth, honed his powers and became a superhero. Green Lantern was chosen at random, drafted into the space cops and became a superhero.
Batman is unique among them not just because he doesn't have powers but because he chose this life. The other characters are what they are from a quirk of fate, an accident of birth, a million to one lab accident or whatever else. I don't think Batman would avoid the JLA. He might avoid the spotlight but he would elbow his way in to a group like that (A) to be their watchdog and (B) because, given his background, I think he'd genuinely believe they're screwed without his help, powers or no powers. There may be some ego behind that (which I'm okay with) but a guy with that kind of psychology... well, I personally don't think it's difficult to justify.
And let's be pragmatic, the JLA should be independent of all governments and political parties. Somebody has to bank roll their activities and even an Amazonian princess probably couldn't get the type of bank loans the League would need.
You guys all make great points. Personally, I prefer the loner Batman but I can take Batman with Robin to a certain extent, even though I've never gotten he and Robin working together.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 31 Aug 2012, 08:13
I think you could argue it goes even deeper than all that. Wonder Woman came to man's world and became a superhero. The Flash was doused in chemicals and lightning, boom, superspeed, so he became a superhero. Superman was sent to Earth, honed his powers and became a superhero. Green Lantern was chosen at random, drafted into the space cops and became a superhero.
Batman is unique among them not just because he doesn't have powers but because he chose this life. The other characters are what they are from a quirk of fate, an accident of birth, a million to one lab accident or whatever else. I don't think Batman would avoid the JLA. He might avoid the spotlight but he would elbow his way in to a group like that (A) to be their watchdog and (B) because, given his background, I think he'd genuinely believe they're screwed without his help, powers or no powers. There may be some ego behind that (which I'm okay with) but a guy with that kind of psychology... well, I personally don't think it's difficult to justify.
And let's be pragmatic, the JLA should be independent of all governments and political parties. Somebody has to bank roll their activities and even an Amazonian princess probably couldn't get the type of bank loans the League would need.
Agreed 100% with this (as well as greggbray's post above that).
Another thing that I'd like to point out is that Bruce Wayne vowed to war on all criminals, not just criminals in Gotham. If there are bigger threats in the universe that threaten the safety of innocent people (or the entire world), then you can sure as hell bet he'd want to be a part of bringing them down. The way that I see it (and other interpretations have shown), Batman would want to be a part of the Justice League as a necessity to stopping these threats, not because he wants to be social.
I also feel like Batman hasn't really been a true loner since 1939. In 1940, Robin came in. Then Alfred. Then the Batman Family. The Justice Society of America. Then, the Justice League. The Outsiders. And now, Batman Inc.
Say what you will about Grant Morrison's work, but he nailed it when Bruce Wayne returned "from the dead," with the realization that he's always had help in his life.
I look at a major story arc like Knightfall and, lying beneath the whole Batman vs. Bane/Batman vs. Batman storyline, is the theme that Batman can't war on crime alone. If Bruce hadn't kept pushing Robin away and insisting on taking everything on himself, he would've had the energy and the preparation to defeat Bane. Instead, he took on everybody alone and didn't stand a chance when Bane arrived in Wayne Manor.
Now, there are practical reasons for this in the fact that it's much easier for Batman to fight crime if he's not the only one out on the streets. But on a deeper level, this is a man who lost his family when he was a child. He can never have any semblance of a normal life or the kind of family that Thomas and Martha had. But his allies, whether they be Alfred, the Robins, Batgirl/Oracle, or the JL superheroes like Superman, are the closest family he can ever have and, again as someone who lost a family, it makes sense that he would accept them as part of his life, rather than reject them.
Personally, I don't question whether a JLA movie with Batman would work.
But I do question whether WB, with their current track record and apparent desire to piggyback off Avengers by getting this JL movie out quickly, will pull off a JLA movie that works. I really hope they do.
I feel like it's too soon.
I love the idea of a Justice League film; one that has all the big seven in them (although given the new 52 timeline, they may end up swapping in Cyborg for Martian Manhunter, which would be a shame IMHO). And while I think that a team up film as a springboard for the other characters can work well on a conceptual/storytelling level, I'm not to sure it's the best idea on a business level. Frankly, I'm afraid that if we see a new cinematic Batman in 2015 in a JL film, some people in the mainstream are gonna be asking, "why isn't that JGL? Wasn't he gonna be Batman now?"
I can sense what WB is thinking, and in a way they're between a rock and a hard place. Any JL film they produce is gonna seem like an Avengers ripp off, so they don't want to ripp of their approach. But frankly, I feel like this is the best way to do it. Start with Superman, then go to Flash or WW, then Aquaman, then Batman and
then do the team up film (they should probably re-introduce GL in the JL film, given the solo GL film's poor reception).
I think this approach is best since a) it's too soon for a cinematic Batman IMHO, and b) I really want them to take their time with the JL fil and make it the most awesome film they can. I want Avengers blown out of the water. :)
QuoteOne of the things that irked me in the last Nolan film was 'Batman could be anybody.' That's not quite true. Anybody *could* be Batman if they were remarkable--like Bruce Wayne. JL operates better for it.
It's one of the reasons I feel like TDKR "ruined" the Nolan series for me. Up until, it was pretty much "my Batman". But sorry, Batman can't just be anybody...
QuotePersonally, I don't question whether a JLA movie with Batman would work.
But I do question whether WB, with their current track record and apparent desire to piggyback off Avengers by getting this JL movie out quickly, will pull off a JLA movie that works. I really hope they do.
Bingo. I really don't want another Green Lantern, a film I was so looking forward to and I thought that they had nailed given the previews. And then it just flat out sucked.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 31 Aug 2012, 02:30Quote from: zDBZ on Fri, 31 Aug 2012, 02:17My thoughts from another board:
I don't even get Batman with Robin, so unless he's a distant advisor and once-in-a-blue-moon, emergencies only reserve member, Batman with the Justice League makes no sense to me. Even within the DCU, I have troubles understanding just what the League is for and where its boundaries lie (why does Superman have to sacrifice himself to stop Doomsday, and why does Batman have to stop Ra's al Ghul from blowing up the Lazurus Pits alone, when the League is supposedly meant for these big threats?) I don't really have a great interest in a film based on this concept unless they can come up with a threat serious enough to justify all these heroes coming together, and again, Batman's role in such a gathering is iffy - I'd prefer him to be Elrond, not Legolas.
That said, I don't fear for the survival of the series if Batman ends up in a JL film.
If we can buy into the idea of an archer helping to turn back the alien invasion in Avengers, Batman fighting alongside the JLA should be an easy enough sell.
I don't really know much about the Avengers, so I can't comment on that. But I have no problem with Batman existing in the same universe as superpowered beings; my own preference is just that, were he in contact with the Justice League, he would take an advisory/reserve position rather than be on constant active duty in the Watchtower.
The "Avengers ripoff" thing is on the table no matter what. But what DC can do to mitigate it (and it may already be too late for this) would be to build toward Justice League of America even slower... or maybe in a more indirect way.
Movie 01- MOS
Movie 02- The Flash (Superman cameo)
Movie 03- Wonder Woman
Movie 04- Batman reboot (Wonder Woman cameo)
Movie 05- World's Finest (Max Lord cameo)
Movie 06- Green Lantern reboot (only two people saw the original so this will be an easy sell)
Movie 07- The Flash 2 (Batman cameo)
Movie 08- Trinity (Max Lord cameo)
Movie 09- Green Lantern 2 (Superman cameo)
Movie 10- Justice League of America
The above is a more gradual approach, it addresses the need for sequels while still presenting audiences with new stuff in each movie and it allows for a shared universe to be built up over time. Plus, you can explore different types of conflicts between the heroes with the pre-JLA team up movies. Not fights necessarily but conflicts.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 01:28
The "Avengers ripoff" thing is on the table no matter what. But what DC can do to mitigate it (and it may already be too late for this) would be to build toward Justice League of America even slower... or maybe in a more indirect way.
Movie 01- MOS
Movie 02- The Flash (Superman cameo)
Movie 03- Wonder Woman
Movie 04- Batman reboot (Wonder Woman cameo)
Movie 05- World's Finest (Max Lord cameo)
Movie 06- Green Lantern reboot (only two people saw the original so this will be an easy sell)
Movie 07- The Flash 2 (Batman cameo)
Movie 08- Trinity (Max Lord cameo)
Movie 09- Green Lantern 2 (Superman cameo)
Movie 10- Justice League of America
The above is a more gradual approach, it addresses the need for sequels while still presenting audiences with new stuff in each movie and it allows for a shared universe to be built up over time. Plus, you can explore different types of conflicts between the heroes with the pre-JLA team up movies. Not fights necessarily but conflicts.
I agree with that general outline except that I would not have cameos of one hero in another heroes film unless it served the film's plot. You can have little easter eggs here and there and post credits hints of the next movie sure, but I think a appearance by WW in a Bats film would undermine Batman and vice versa. While I do want the next Batman film series to be more "comic-booky" and within a cinematic DCU, I do think that overall solo Batman stories works best when presented in a more-or-less "realistic" context (think the comics work best this way too). Not talking a TDK level of realism, but think Batman 1989. I would also skip the Words Finest and Trinity films and go strait for JL. Lastly, I would either make the GL re-boot a sequel, or just skip GL altogether and make him the "Hulk" of the JL film.
Quote from: ElCuervoMuerto on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 08:00You can have little easter eggs here and there and post credits hints of the next movie sure, but I think a appearance by WW in a Bats film would undermine Batman and vice versa.
I think you're missing the point. The idea is to have the cameos in each movie so that it's made plain that none exist in a continuity unto themselves. The shared universe angle has to be repeated in every film.
Quote from: ElCuervoMuerto on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 08:00While I do want the next Batman film series to be more "comic-booky" and within a cinematic DCU, I do think that overall solo Batman stories works best when presented in a more-or-less "realistic" context (think the comics work best this way too). Not talking a TDK level of realism, but think Batman 1989.
...
B89 is realistic?
Quote from: ElCuervoMuerto on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 08:00I would also skip the Words Finest and Trinity films and go strait for JL. Lastly, I would either make the GL re-boot a sequel, or just skip GL altogether and make him the "Hulk" of the JL film.
Again, you're missing the point. If the "Avengers ripoff" thing really is a concern for somebody, the WF and Trinity films bypass that by leading more slowly to a Justice League movie. Fact is that WF and Trinity are legitimate DCU concepts and I don't think there's any immediate counterpart for them in the Marvel universe. What you're proposing is basically a derivative of what Marvel has already done. I don't really have a dog in that fight either way but if it really bothers somebody, well, WF and Trinity are a way to make the build up more WB's own.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 13:35Quote from: ElCuervoMuerto on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 08:00While I do want the next Batman film series to be more "comic-booky" and within a cinematic DCU, I do think that overall solo Batman stories works best when presented in a more-or-less "realistic" context (think the comics work best this way too). Not talking a TDK level of realism, but think Batman 1989.
...
B89 is realistic?
Relatively speaking, yes. There is a level of cartooniness to the humour (the Joker's giant gun) and a stylised art direction, but nothing as wild as, say, the Riddler's brain sucking machine, or even the ambiguity that surrounds Catwoman's origins in
Returns.
It's funny. When B89 came out I recall there was this pretty wild reaction to it. To the audiences of 1989 'Batman' was indeed a weird and far out film. After the all of the comic book films that have appeared since, it looks relatively grounded and tame. Nowhere near as over the top as Riddler's brain sucking machine, as Mr. Freeze's 'lets kick some ice' gun, or anything in the Marvel films.
I think it's a bit more grounded, but only on a relative scale. On its own it still has some fantastic elements, but they're generally played down.
Quote from: greggbray on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 22:03It's funny. When B89 came out I recall there was this pretty wild reaction to it. To the audiences of 1989 'Batman' was indeed a weird and far out film.
Yeah, see, that's how I remember it too. True, I was but a child but I remember thinking I'd never seen
anything like that before and everyone else (young and old) was saying the same thing. If it wasn't the lighting, it was the back lot stuff. If it wasn't that, it was the use of matte paintings. I remember someone saying Gotham City looked "amazing, like New York on drugs". In fact, I'd go so far as to say the (at the time) out there crazy production design and look of the sucker was one of the movie's bigger selling points.
Quote from: greggbray on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 22:03I think it's a bit more grounded, but only on a relative scale. On its own it still has some fantastic elements, but they're generally played down.
QuoteI think you're missing the point. The idea is to have the cameos in each movie so that it's made plain that none exist in a continuity unto themselves. The shared universe angle has to be repeated in every film.
True, but I think there are ways to do that without a full blown character cameo unless it serves the story being told. For example, Howard Stark needed to be in Captain America, but Nick Fury and Black Widow felt superfluous to me in IM2, and it's one of the reasons I feel like that film is vastly inferior to it's predecessor. You can have winks, nudges, and after credits scenes, but I don't have cameos just for cameos sake.
QuoteB89 is realistic?
Like zDBZ said, I feel like relatively speaking yes it is. I would argue that it is as "realistic" as BB with it's "microwave" transmitter, and in fact more realistic than TDKR with it's back healed by a punch, major american cities being held hostage for months on end without any decisive government action, and with Bruce transversing the Atlantic with zero money. :)
QuoteAgain, you're missing the point. If the "Avengers ripoff" thing really is a concern for somebody, the WF and Trinity films bypass that by leading more slowly to a Justice League movie. Fact is that WF and Trinity are legitimate DCU concepts and I don't think there's any immediate counterpart for them in the Marvel universe. What you're proposing is basically a derivative of what Marvel has already done. I don't really have a dog in that fight either way but if it really bothers somebody, well, WF and Trinity are a way to make the build up more WB's own.
Ah yes, I did misread your post. Personally I have no problem with DCE going the full Marvel route with solo and then team up films, but it's my suspicion is that WB/DCE do and this is why they're doing the team up film first. The reason I would skip WF and trinity and go straight to JL is that well...if you're gonna do a team up, why not go all out you know?
Quote from: ElCuervoMuerto on Mon, 3 Sep 2012, 07:09The reason I would skip WF and trinity and go straight to JL is that well...if you're gonna do a team up, why not go all out you know?
Because Marvel has already done it and so wide audiences aren't going to get as big a charge out of superheroes teaming up now as they might've before. The novelty is gone. At this point, WB is merely keeping up with the Jones'. Therefore, doing WF and Trinity movies before Justice League of America offers a few unique opportunities that Marvel either didn't or can't match.
(1) It's doing effectively the same job but in a way different from Marvel. (2) In-universe, it makes the concept of the JLA teaming up more plausible. By the time JLA rolls around, it will be very much in character for the three of them to look for help in dealing with X, Y or Z. This is important because classically there hasn't been a Nick Fury/SHIELD type of overseer for the JLA. (3) Our universe, publicity and marketing! Marvel doesn't really have an analog for WF or Trinity so those by themselves are something unique. Even if Marvel did have similar concepts with their icons, odds are they're already in the Avengers anyway. Who's going to get excited about a Captain America/Iron Man team up movie now that we've seen both of 'em as part of the Avengers? Nobody. (4) Also our universe, pacification. It gives the actors something new to work with in each successive film. Putting Henry Cavill into MOS, then WF, then Trinity and then JLA rather than dropping him directly into a Superman sequel is both unorthodox and fodder for him as an actor. Gives him something fresh to work with each time out. Why is this an issue? Well, honestly before Christian Bale slept through TDK, I might not have even thought about it, put it that way.
It's not like it matters anyway because WB would've needed to lay a hell of a lot more ground work for this that simply doesn't exist right now and isn't likely to at this point. My only point in this entire hypothetical scenario is that if WB is going to develop a Justice League of America movie, there's a lot to be gained from doing it differently than the way Marvel handled the Avengers.
The one thing that separates DC from marvel is the atmosphere. And if you're wondering I'll get this out of the way; i'm not partial to one or the other, 3 of my 5 favourite are DC (green lantern, arrow, and batman with daredevil and spidey on the marvel side) but of the ones i read casually only one is DC (Flash vs Ghost rider, luke cage, the hulk, iron man, and captain america).
So anyhow thor is the only marvel character where the setting itself becomes a character on its own. Yes many of them are in new york but that is also a real city with not much imagination.
Superman you have metropolis, which is literally the definition of a capital metropolis city
batman you have the dark and gloomy gotham city
Green arrow has the similar star city with its own corruption and the woods
aquaman has the sea
Green lantern has the blue collar coast city and of course space
They also have unique relationships with each other; Batman and superman are close but don't quite trust each other. Green arrow is generally the wise one of the group. Wonder woman and superman of course end up together. Green lantern does have the early feud with the flash but otherwise great friends with Barry as well as the green arrow but a very rock relationship with Batman.
The last time the DC vs marvel battle rushed a film onto the big screen it was the 1990 disaster known as captain america. How DC can do it differently is build the cross overs better. With the exception of Black widow and Iron man, the avengers has the 6 heroes all meeting each other for the first time. They kind of rushed those dynamics.
What DC can do which marvel did not is start doing cross overs. Kind of similar to the bill bixby TV hulk films with thor and daredevil in the 80's. I think the green lantern may work best because he has dynamics that can work with each of them. It does seem like most of these heroes would not get along or at least be slow to trust each other at first. Especially Batman with any of the rest of the group. Do films with only 2 or 3 and have them intertwine into each others universes. Or even do it as 2 separate franchises; put the more fantasy oriented ones Green Lantern and flash together and the gritty powerless ones Batman and Green arrow together. Superman and wonder woman could go either way, likely the power side although superman and batman do have an interesting dynamic.