Yea, just found this, haven't looked through yet, but loosley looked at the end, I see Dick, Vicki Vale and Catwomen trying yo commit suicide, so, my question is, could this have worked?
Here's the script btw;
http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/batman-returns_unproduced.html
The Penguin and Catwoman hunting for treasure? ::) Also, Hamm didn't use The Penguin's real name from the comics. He's instead named Mr. Boniface. WHY?! >:(
However, I loved the opening of the script and the angle with the vigilantes inspired by Batman, obviously referencing New York's Guardian Angels. This idea would later be used in The Dark Knight.
Quote from: Seantastic on Thu, 24 Jun 2010, 13:48
I see Dick, Vicki Vale and Catwomen trying yo commit suicide, so, my question is, could this have worked?
I think so, on a variety of levels.
In any case, I'm satisfied with Selina "suiciding" with Max.
BATMAN II is one of those things that I can never really rectify. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate it, but when faced with proponents, I find myself wondering how it would have turned out. I'm a die hard Returns fan, though so I never give that too much thought. Also, lets not forget, Sam, on his own (89), went down some roads in the final act that I think were not only questionable, but down right bad. The Skaaren revision, though highly criticized, was better. The only thing left out of Hamm's 89 that I missed was the 'Knox discovering Bruce's secret' angle. In the finished product, he starts out like a major perception in the film, but as we intro Vale and Bruce, he becomes third stringer.
There was no way either film would have worked ridding only on Sam Hamm. It's just that in the case of 'BATMAN II,' it required much less of him than on BATMAN.
Quote from: Darrell Kaiser on Fri, 25 Jun 2010, 05:05
Hamm didn't use The Penguin's real name from the comics. He's instead named Mr. Boniface. WHY?! >:(
In the very first Penguin story, the alias he uses is Mr. Boniface. Oswald Cobblepot didn't come about until the mid-forties in a
Sunday comic strip. I think Hamm used it as a nod to the first story. Personally I prefer Cobblepot, but having him use it as an alias at least once would be fine.
Quote from: gordonblu on Fri, 25 Jun 2010, 19:38
In the very first Penguin story, the alias he uses is Mr. Boniface. Oswald Cobblepot didn't come about until the mid-forties in a
Sunday comic strip. I think Hamm used it as a nod to the first story. Personally I prefer Cobblepot, but having him use it as an alias at least once would be fine.
Wow, I had not known that! All that time I'd thought Sam Hamm hadn't done his homework! I read that script long, long ago and came away thinking "WTF?" That's very interesting.
Nice to hear from you again, Pigeon! Haven't had you on the site lately. You must actually have a life unlike me!
I can't even get through this script.
Over the years I keep coming back to it but i just find is so disappointing. I can't believe Sam Hamm wrote it. It's like a totally different writer.
I'm someone who appreciates the BR returns for everything other than it's plot.
But this script was even worse.
Sam's first draft of Batman was incredible. I would have thought that his Batman 2 script would have been a slam dunk.
I guess Burton also felt that it was so bad that it wasn't even worth rewrites.
Yeah, I was never a fan of Sam Hamm's script either. Some people might've wished this got filmed instead of BR because Commissioner Gordon had more to do and the introduction of Dick Grayson, Vicki Vale's return and Batman having more dialogue. But my biggest criticisms for it is Penguin and Catwoman lacked any real depth that the BR script has and judging by the amount of Batman material, it seems he would've had even less screentime than in the BR script. Besides, I think Vicki fulfilled her purpose in B89 and I prefer the idea of Batman's crusade deprives him the chance of ever having healthy lasting relationship.
The only thing I liked was the plotline involving the media questioning whether or not Batman's lethal actions are good for society, similar to Akiva Goldsman's early draft for BF. It was a good foundation to vilify Batman once he gets framed for murder. But at this rate, the only live action movie that questions the character's methods is BvS.
The only ideas that were carried over in BR were:
- The Batman merchandise shop. There was a set for the movie that had B89 movie merchandise ready for sale, but it was scrapped from filming. I guess the filmmakers figured it would've been too meta.
- Batman coming to the rescue in the Batmobile. In Hamm's script, Batman stops a group of thieves trying to make their escape from robbing a store; in the film, he stops the Red Triangle Gang's attacks in Gotham Plaza.
- Batman getting framed for murder. Different circumstances, but same idea. Including a swarm of bats attacking Christmas goers and onlookers to further implicate Batman as a public menace.
- Batman fighting Catwoman on a rooftop, with him dangling over the edge.
There's probably a bit more, but that's off the top of my head. I suppose those plot details were enough for Hamm to still share story credit with Daniel Waters for BR.
Quote from: Kamdan on Fri, 25 Jun 2010, 05:05
However, I loved the opening of the script and the angle with the vigilantes inspired by Batman, obviously referencing New York's Guardian Angels. This idea would later be used in The Dark Knight.
The inspired vigilantes idea might've been explored by Sam Hamm, but according to the Batman Anthology Wikia site, the stuff with the Batman copycats was originally conceived in one of Daniel Waters' earlier drafts for BR. Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez, who also drew the comic book adaptation for the movie, did a couple of rough sketches of Batman confronting the copycats, who were a threat to criminals and innocent people.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/batmananthology/images/3/31/Batcreeps.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160622221014)
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/batmananthology/images/c/c8/Batcreeps2.jpg)
Source: https://batmananthology.fandom.com/wiki/BatCreeps
I'm taking a quick look at Waters' draft. The copycats appear in one of the Red Triangle Gang's crime sprees.
Quote
Wicked laughter and violence can be heard on the boombox
as a CIRCUS CREEP in a moth-eaten old-style baseball
pitcher uniform tosses a series of old-fashioned round
black fuse-lit smoke bombs to the Tattooed Strongman who
bats them exploding into various walls and windows,
including the window of a suave venetianed blinded diner.
PATRONS of the Diner thunder out of the door. A COUPLE
rushes directly to the viewer, then stops and smiles.
THE HUSBAND
Oh, Batman, thank God!
EXT. OTHER SIDE OF THE RESTAURANT--NIGHT
Another set of patrons hightail it out of the Diner in
a different direction. They also stop to look at the
camera.
WOMAN IN BIB
Oh Batman, finally...
EXT. THE BACK OF THE RESTAURANT--NIGHT
A TEAM OF ITALIAN COOKS burst out of the back of the
restaurant. They happily sigh before the viewer.
COOKS
Pensavo che stavo muerto,
gracie dio.....BATMAN!
EXT. A WIDER VIEW FROM ABOVE--NIGHT
reveals THE SIX GLOWERING, FRANKENSTEIN-SIZED SLEAZES
DRESSED IN TAWDRY BUT MILDLY REALISTIC BATMAN OUTFITS.
Their spiky tufts of white hair stick out the edges of
their masks. They chillingly stride forward, cracking
their knuckles.
The Patrons in all directions drop their smiles of relief
and begin to back up. The Batmans swarm forward.
The Italian Cooks are revealed to be looking at a HAIRY
WHITE BABOON in a Batman outfit. They bail.
Batman would arrive to defeat the entire gang with his homing Batarang, which is very similar to how he knocked out some members of the Red Triangle Gang in the final cut.
Quote
EXT. THE DINER ON THE PROMENADE--NIGHT
Just as the victims did before, one of the thrashing
Batmans looks directly to the viewer. He stops beating
to lustily spout.
BATCREEP #1
What are you waiting for, join in!
His P.O.V. reveals that he is looking at the real Batman,
who allows the BatCreep a second of white faced realiza-
tion before ripping off his mask and savagely pounding
him to the ground.
The other Batcreeps reach into their bat belts and pull
out surreally shaped knives. Batman reaches into his
bat-belt and pulls out his suave black Gameboy. As if
bored on a plane, Batman casually punches in a set of
white dots and one red one.
With a simultaneous howl, the Batcreeps charge at Batman
from every direction. Batman presses a button on his
Gameboy that causes batarang flanks to rocket-sprout out
of the oblong object. Batman heaves the super-batarang.
The super-batarang whizzes with wild concentration, pin-
balling from Batcreep skull to Batcreep skull, slamming
them all to the ground. The batarang boomerang-wobbles
back to Batman's hand. The white dots on the screen
blink off. The victorious red dot beeps.
Source: http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/batman-returns_early.html
Besides the goof by Waters for mixing some Spanish with the Italian cooks' dialogue, I do wonder how this entire sequence could've played out on film.
Just read this all the way up to the Shaw murder and I feel that the Gotham Knight of yesteryear misjudged this a fair bit. After all, the Gotham Knight of the past only read selected bits of this script and was still a zealot. I have some new thoughts.
I understand why there are sublets of the Burton camp that like this script better than Returns final product. Thus far it is a direct continuation of 89's style (more or less) and it has something to say about Batman, though it is much more upfront about it this time around. It also has a stronger story (so far), well at least one more concerned with the blow by blow. The villains better represent at least the surface levels who they literally were in the comics and fit better together as a duo. 'Rich gangster needs services of a jewel thief' is simple and right headed.
I can easily recognize why Returns didn't land with some fans of the first feature, it being a more acquired taste and something that was written by someone (Daniel Waters) who by his own admission hated Bat89. Still, the characterizations of Returns (final product) are much stronger and the dynamic between Bruce and Selina (which has yet to materialize in this script) is dynamite.
Other things I like about the Hamm version:
The beret wearing Bat militia types who are just idiot teenagers and the general Batmania going on in the city.
The frame up of Batman is better handled so far I think. Well...more direct anyway, and it is a major ongoing plot point of the feature. A murderous Catwoman who is shifting the blame to Batman while his zealous fans cheer on. I dig it.
Vale's homelessness subplot. I wonder where it all goes, but it is all very nice envisioning.
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 18:38
Just read this all the way up to the Shaw murder and I feel that the Gotham Knight of yesteryear misjudged this a fair bit. After all, the Gotham Knight of the past only read selected bits of this script and was still a zealot. I have some new thoughts.
I understand why there are sublets of the Burton camp that like this script better than Returns final product. Thus far it is a direct continuation of 89's style (more or less) and it has something to say about Batman, though it is much more upfront about it this time around. It also has a stronger story (so far), well at least one more concerned with the blow by blow. The villains better represent at least the surface levels who they literally were in the comics and fit better together as a duo. 'Rich gangster needs services of a jewel thief' is simple and right headed.
I can easily recognize why Returns didn't land with some fans of the first feature, it being a more acquired taste and something that was written by someone (Daniel Waters) who by his own admission hated Bat89. Still, the characterizations of Returns (final product) are much stronger and the dynamic between Bruce and Selina (which has yet to materialize in this script) is dynamite.
Other things I like about the Hamm version:
The beret wearing Bat militia types who are just idiot teenagers and the general Batmania going on in the city.
The frame up of Batman is better handled so far I think. Well...more direct anyway, and it is a major ongoing plot point of the feature. A murderous Catwoman who is shifting the blame to Batman while his zealous fans cheer on. I dig it.
Vale's homelessness subplot. I wonder where it all goes, but it is all very nice envisioning.
Read a little more. I like Vale being the first one to see Robin. In fact I'd say she ought to be the mediator between he and Bruce. It would give her more to do.
Bruce sneezing in Selina (director of antiquities) Kyle's face because he is allergic is great, if only because I think Keaton would have pulled it off.
The murder of the Globe's Editor in Chief needed to involve Batman more. He's outside the fray too long. Bruce bugs offices (I dug that he taps Gordon's office) and does lots of surveillance, he knows the 'five families' have been targeted, so he needs get more action, be ready to strike back, even if it still goes wrong. It all needs more chutzpah, considering this is the first major action set piece involving the caped crusader that is tied to the plot. The first piece was just a 'hey, Batman is a thing in Gotham City now' scene.
Batman having a device installed that protects his identity is cool, but considering he ends up turning to Robin for help in the end, it would be better if Robin intervenes and saves him right before the police unmask unconscious Bats. In fact, you could inter cut Robin sneak stealing the horse (that Batman used for a getaway anyway) before hand and have him steal Batman away to the park and change very little, but now you put the sidekick over as somebody that Batman owes his life to.
The Raven Society better have a big payoff because it seems a tad too hokey for my taste. I mean, I love the golden age vibes throughout the script, but we shall see.
One thing that strikes me about Hamm's script is how closely it reflects what was happening in the comics at that time. There are certain aspects of Hamm's treatment that are so close to contemporary comic stories that it's hard to tell whether he was referencing them or whether they were referencing his script. Or maybe it was just a coincidence. Either way, the similarities are uncanny. I'll give you two examples.
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 18:38The beret wearing Bat militia types who are just idiot teenagers and the general Batmania going on in the city.
This subplot is remarkably similar to Mike W. Barr's 'Faith' (Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight Vol 1 #21-23, August-October 1991), which also featured a gang of copycat vigilantes dressed in red berets and bat-emblem tops.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rZrDtL4/1.png)
This comic storyline was published in late 1991, at more or less the same time Batman Returns was being filmed. However the scripts for these issues would have been written several months earlier, round about the time Hamm was working on his draft of the Batman II script. Is it possible Hamm had early access to the comic story, or is it merely a coincidence that he and Barr concurrently developed such similar storylines? Either way, both stories were clearly satirising the real life Guardian Angels organisation. Both may also have derived influence from the Sons of Batman vigilante gang featured in The Dark Knight Returns.
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 18:38Vale's homelessness subplot. I wonder where it all goes, but it is all very nice envisioning.
And this recalls a similar plot from 'Identity Crisis' (Batman Vol 1 #455-457, October-December 1990), which also saw Vicki investigating Gotham's homeless at Christmastime.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHHY75jP/2.png)
Coincidentally (or not), this comic story also features a sequence where criminals in skull masks attack shoppers on Christmas Eve, similar to the first Red Triangle Gang riot in the finished film.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NLJWmRX/3.png)
Waters has implied that he mostly disregarded the source material, while Hamm was clearly more attentive to what comic writers were doing at the time. Many of the parallels between Waters' script and the comics, such as the plot points adapted from the Penguin's debut story in Detective Comics Vol 1 #58 (December 1941), were inherited from Hamm's script. Waters denies referencing the earlier drafts, but the fact remains that there are obvious parallels between his and Hamm's treatments. Hence why Hamm is credited for the story of the finished film. I much prefer Waters take on Catwoman, but Hamm's story on the whole would have been a much truer sequel to the 1989 film and a more accurate adaptation of the comics. There are things I like in both scripts, but I think it's fair to say that Hamm's was a better Batman story and Waters' was a better Catwoman story.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 20:09but I think it's fair to say that Hamm's was a better Batman story and Waters' was a better Catwoman story.
I think I agree. By the way, thank you for that post. It was a very nice read.
I agree, but I think Waters was right to shine the light on Selina like he did.
(I've read until the shooting of Robin and the assembling of the map) The thing I find missing here, no matter how solid the footing of Sam's version (and it is very solid), is chutzpah, especially concerning Catwoman. She's cool in Hamm's version, a femme fatale, but vapid. I'm sure whatever actress they cast would have added something to the mix, but the lack of involvement on her part bothers me. For all the talk about comic book accuracy and this script's basic adherence to it, it (so far) has fumbled the thing that makes Batman/Catwoman stories compelling: the feelings they share, even if they are implied or hinted at. Goes all the way back to Kane's days and 'the Cat's' first appearance on that cruise line. Something more. True, not every writer is especially interested in that, but the best stories IMO, the most compelling, at least dance with the idea that they might love each other. "OMG he's hot" is all the script offers for her. It offers the kinky 'these are crazy people' undercurrent that makes up the Burton entries, but without the raw honesty and earnestness that Returns had.
The Raven Society plays well enough in Hamm's hands even though as a concept I think it isn't big enough. Hamm's a pretty good salesmen and the script feels like it has built to the reveal of the 1885 robbery very well.
I think this works. It needs punching up, but it works in an alternate universe where it got made instead of Returns.
And Finished. Well...
It works.
I realized something. That most of my qualms with this script, most but not all, would be solved in the presentation. And you know what? That's the thing about Batman (1989), too. On the written page, it would read like a decent plot structure without a tremendous amount of explicit emotional involvement save for some of the death of the Waynes stuff, and it was up to the actors/director to get it over.
Ideally, you take Burton, get him back (even though he was more interested in doing his own thing), and put him to work on what he does best and that's exposing the interesting parts of these characters. I think a lot of lines change, things get polished, and you amp things up a bit and you have a sequel that (and this a big one for me to admit) makes more money than Returns. I think Returns is the better movie in the end, but I think this movie would appeal more, avoid most. if not all the controversy (Catwoman would still mortify a bit as the kinky throat slasher), be a solid Batman centric story, and keep things profitable as a straight laced sequel to Bat89.
The hidden Gold still bugs me, but Hamm sells it pretty good and I like that it gets our villains to the Manor, which is a great scene. The final confrontation is pretty darn strong. If you could find a way to achieve the same ends, I say go for it. In fact, that might be the biggest part of the polish. Find a way to get the same tent pole scenes with some other maguffin.
I'm surprised that I've never read this script before... I mean, I've been a "fan" since '89. I enjoyed it as a totally separate take on BATMAN RETURNS. I think the ending was really strong as well. As far as the MacGuffin... the old family "treasure" was a little more interesting than Max Shreck (though I enjoy him) in that it ties Bruce to Gotham a bit more, and explores his father's past in an intriguing way. Anyone that's lost a parent can tell you it that bittersweet surprise to learn things about your parents after they're gone, so that appealed to me. I like the idea of Vicki and Selina being at odds with one another, but I think Burton's version ultimately allowed for better chemistry between Bruce and Selina... if Vicki had been in the movie, all of that tension might've been lessened by the fact that Bruce is committed to her. Anyway... I enjoyed the read!
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 21:35(I've read until the shooting of Robin and the assembling of the map) The thing I find missing here, no matter how solid the footing of Sam's version (and it is very solid), is chutzpah, especially concerning Catwoman. She's cool in Hamm's version, a femme fatale, but vapid. I'm sure whatever actress they cast would have added something to the mix, but the lack of involvement on her part bothers me. For all the talk about comic book accuracy and this script's basic adherence to it, it (so far) has fumbled the thing that makes Batman/Catwoman stories compelling: the feelings they share, even if they are implied or hinted at. Goes all the way back to Kane's days and 'the Cat's' first appearance on that cruise line. Something more. True, not every writer is especially interested in that, but the best stories IMO, the most compelling, at least dance with the idea that they might love each other. "OMG he's hot" is all the script offers for her. It offers the kinky 'these are crazy people' undercurrent that makes up the Burton entries, but without the raw honesty and earnestness that Returns had.
This is why I don't like Hamm's Catwoman. She's completely unsympathetic and is shown casually murdering people without remorse (as did Nolan's version in TDKR). The Selina in the comics usually displays an aversion to killing, and while she does kill Shreck at the end of Batman Returns it takes her the entire film to psyche herself up to the deed. Elsewhere, she shows remorse at the death of the Ice Princess. By contrast, Hamm's Selina was pure evil.
The Hamm version doesn't care about Bruce one bit. I don't think Waters' Catwoman really cared about Batman, and their flirty relationship was more of a sadomasochistic power thing, but I do think Waters' Selina cared about Bruce. She was earnest in her desire to have a relationship with him, unlike in Hamm's version where her flirtations are merely a ploy.
I suppose an argument in defence of Hamm's Catwoman is that his script also had Vicki, who was the real love interest, so there didn't need to be any real depth of emotion between Bruce and Selina.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 18 Nov 2020, 23:31
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 21:35(I've read until the shooting of Robin and the assembling of the map) The thing I find missing here, no matter how solid the footing of Sam's version (and it is very solid), is chutzpah, especially concerning Catwoman. She's cool in Hamm's version, a femme fatale, but vapid. I'm sure whatever actress they cast would have added something to the mix, but the lack of involvement on her part bothers me. For all the talk about comic book accuracy and this script's basic adherence to it, it (so far) has fumbled the thing that makes Batman/Catwoman stories compelling: the feelings they share, even if they are implied or hinted at. Goes all the way back to Kane's days and 'the Cat's' first appearance on that cruise line. Something more. True, not every writer is especially interested in that, but the best stories IMO, the most compelling, at least dance with the idea that they might love each other. "OMG he's hot" is all the script offers for her. It offers the kinky 'these are crazy people' undercurrent that makes up the Burton entries, but without the raw honesty and earnestness that Returns had.
This is why I don't like Hamm's Catwoman. She's completely unsympathetic and is shown casually murdering people without remorse (as did Nolan's version in TDKR). The Selina in the comics usually displays an aversion to killing, and while she does kill Shreck at the end of Batman Returns it takes her the entire film to psyche herself up to the deed. Elsewhere, she shows remorse at the death of the Ice Princess. By contrast, Hamm's Selina was pure evil.
The Hamm version doesn't care about Bruce one bit. I don't think Waters' Catwoman really cared about Batman, and their flirty relationship was more of a sadomasochistic power thing, but I do think Waters' Selina cared about Bruce. She was earnest in her desire to have a relationship with him, unlike in Hamm's version where her flirtations are merely a ploy.
I suppose an argument in defence of Hamm's Catwoman is that his script also had Vicki, who was the real love interest, so there didn't need to be any real depth of emotion between Bruce and Selina.
Vicki is the only solid defense I can think of. Her placement (and presumably continued presence in the sequels as Bruce's wife) in the story and the scripts defiant portrayal of Batman as someone who is (barring a few hubba-hubbas) literally allergic to Selina closes the door on any romantic entanglement. I've never been much of a fan of franchises taking up James Bonds' romance recycling, but in the case of Vicki Vale Returns offers a credible explanation for her disappearance. It was never going to work.
I still say that it plays well enough to keep the franchise alive and kicking, as Returns has so much controversy attached to it. Hamm's Batman 2 is a studio win, Returns takes the series to its all time high, but at the cost of receipts.
I found this Photoshopped image of Batman looking on as Vicki is held hostage by Penguin in the Batcave, in what would've been the climax for Sam Hamm's Batman II. This manip was created by a fan called Logan Wood.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHQLGdgVQAA0U4O?format=jpg)
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 19 Nov 2020, 15:07
I've never been much of a fan of franchises taking up James Bonds' romance recycling, but in the case of Vicki Vale Returns offers a credible explanation for her disappearance. It was never going to work.
Returns as it was filmed handled romance perfectly. I don't think Batman should ever get a happy ending with
anyone. It's important that he maintains a dark, unfulfilled angst in his heart. He can't have a normal relationship, even if he truly wanted one. As with The Batman, the experience only serves to torment him further and send him back to crimefighting with renewed purpose. The character's power is being a tortured loner, not a contented family man. Give me the Batman Beyond ending to Bruce's crusade - alone in an empty mansion, which is beautiful in its tragedy.
A 1992 Wizard Magazine review/summary of the Hamm script just prior to the release of "Batman Returns".
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPLi77UakAAc5nD?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPLi77UacAArdUE?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPLjBYLasAcgITq?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPLi77VagAACjrh?format=jpg&name=large)