Can anyone explain this character to me? Everyone says she's stupid, but she's a medical doctor, so I don't see how she could be anything but pretty intelligent. I can only imagine that she's suppressing her true intelligence when she's hanging out with the Joker, much like Lorelei Ambrosia in Superman 3 (remember her? Ross Webster's girlfriend.) I've also heard some people say she cheated her way to her medical degree. Well, that may be possible with some college degrees, but not with a medical degree. So my take is that she must be fairly intelligent.
she's like me. brilliant but hides it well since it serves her purpose to...for now. ;)
In the comics, Harley Quinn is described as having a genius-level IQ. So, despite her typical demeanor ... No. She's not dumb.
Harleen attended Gotham State University on a scholarship for gymnastics, where she majored in Psychiatry. To get into the graduate program, she had Dr Markus meet with her in her dorm room (yeah, the same Dr. who she begged to that she would do anything to get an internship at Arkham Asylum), then outlined what she believed would be a good graduate thesis. The basis of which would be 'There are only two circumstances under which a person disregards the rules of society. When they commit a crime, or when they're in love.'
Upon graduating, and with a glowing reference from Dr Markus, Dr. Quinzel began her first-year residency at Arkham. As soon as she was accepted by Dr. Arkham, she requested to meet the Joker. Claiming she was researching for a book on serial killers, she was allowed complete access. In their first session together, she introduced herself as Dr Harleen Quinzel, though the Joker chose to call her Harley Quinn, referring to the medieval jester, Harlequin. Joker soon after began laughing and asked if she was flirting with him. She moved closer, whereupon he chose to strangle her.
Upon getting a loving look from Harley as he attempted to strangle her, instead of shock or fright, he ceased, stating it was a joke. The pair then began an affair with Quinn helping Joker escape from Arkham numerous times before eventually being caught herself. Needless to say, her medical license was revoked and she was committed to Arkham as well, despite her plea that all of the releases were actually therapeutic. ;D
Thanks for the excellent write-up The Joker. That bio makes a lot of sense. I always got the impression that Harleen Quinzel was actually rather gifted academically and athletically, despite her apparently 'dumb blonde' Harley Quinn persona. I also get the impression that she uses this persona as a means of tricking her enemies by causing them to lower their expectations.
Even if she did cheat to get into the graduate program, she still had to have been reasonably bright to manipulate Dr Markus so effectively.
I also think that Harley must have gone through something traumatic in her childhood, or else, be emotionally/ psychiatrically damaged to behave so submissively in The Joker's company.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sun, 27 Dec 2009, 15:58
I also think that Harley must have gone through something traumatic in her childhood, or else, be emotionally/ psychiatrically damaged to behave so submissively in The Joker's company.
Well, Harley's full blown infatuation with the Joker really occurred in the aftermath of her college boyfriend's death.
As the story goes, Guy (Harley's college boyfriend) invented this a 'Think Drink' that apparently was successful in being able to calm, and center himself. One day Guy came into the dorm, making flirtacious jokes, and wondered why Harley wasn't laughing. She explained she had driven through a red light, whilst driving a stolen car after blackmailing Dr Markus and possibly even shooting him. Hearing this, along with the evidence of a recently fired handgun, made Guy run out with it when she asked if he still loves her. When she found him in the gymnasium (where the 'shooting' took place) she found him laughing nervously standing over a homeless man he had just shot, believing him to be Dr Markus. He begged her to help him shoot himself, asking her to do it because she loved him. The gun went off, though it's unclear in the issue this story takes place (Harley Quinn #8) if she did actually help pull the trigger.
Later, she is found by Dr. Markus sitting alone, in shock, and convinced that
everything was caused by chaos and nobody except Guy - and The Joker was on the news at this time after having recently being caught again - knew that. Harley came to the conclusion that only she
truly understood Joker.
Stating,
"CHAOS. HA HA! You gotta laugh, Doc! I've tried to be in control all my life, but Guy was right! It's all CHAOS! You can't control anything! Best you can do is be the snowball that starts the avalanche! The atom that starts the chain reaction! Guy knew that, and the Joker! The Joker understands that better than ANYONE! He's a genius!" Which was followed upon by Harley frantically requesting to meet the Joker, pointing to his image on the screen as she grabbed Dr. Markus by the collar and continued to go on about how they DESERVED one another and so on and so forth. But as fate would have it, it later turned out in the story that Dr Markus had actually spiked Guy's 'Think Drink' with diluted Joker Venom to counteract the stresses that Harley would put him through. With the point being that if Harley had known this at the time, it may have kept her from thinking everything was caused by chaos, but by this point, which was well into her Harley Quinn days, there was no going back for her.
Here's a cover of the issue detailing Harley's backstory with Guy and Dr. Markus, BTW.
Being a Harley Quinn fan, I have the complete run of her 1st ongoing title. With this issue being definately one of my favourites.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg215.imageshack.us%2Fimg215%2F920%2F560harleyquinn.jpg&hash=3deb0081a2ad4b3c1376925f6fb02e9501aba1ab)
Sounds like an excellent issue. Are there any graphic novels that deal with Harley Quinn's back story by any chance?
The only trade that I know of that goes into her history, is the "Batman: Mad Love and other stories" TPB. Which collects the Batman: Mad Love one shot, and some other stories by Paul Dini and Bruce Timm that feature Two-Face, Scarecrow, Mr. Freeze, and Bat girl.
There is a "Harley Quinn: Preludes and Knock Knock Jokes" trade, that deals with the first 6 or 7 issues, but not the aforementioned #8.
Quote from: The Joker on Sun, 27 Dec 2009, 14:58
The basis of which would be 'There are only two circumstances under which a person disregards the rules of society. When they commit a crime, or when they're in love.'
Indeed.
As The Merovingian said: "It is remarkable how similar the pattern of love is to the pattern of insanity."
Having a medical degree (or any advanced degree for that matter) doesn't preclude one from going insane. There are plenty of real-world examples.
Slightly off-topic: I was so excited when Harley was introduced into the regular DC continuity but I was rather disappointed with her debut. First of all, they made her a meta-human. Second, I was so used to her original design that I felt the more realistic depiction of her took away from her charm.
I also liked her re-imagining for the Azzarello/Bermejo Joker one-shot. It was the first time she was actually scary and lethal (she doesn't utter a single word), which made Batman taking her down all the more satisfying.
Quote from: phantom stranger on Tue, 29 Dec 2009, 05:48
Slightly off-topic: I was so excited when Harley was introduced into the regular DC continuity but I was rather disappointed with her debut. First of all, they made her a meta-human. Second, I was so used to her original design that I felt the more realistic depiction of her took away from her charm.
I can see your point, but the whole meta-human aspect to the DCU Harley Quinn didn't bother me much due to it's execution, and the fact that she basically got into Gotham State University on a scholarship for gymnastics. Harley being turned meta-human basically amped up her gymnast skills, possibly even exceeding the ability of Dick Grayson, and made her immune to various assorted toxins. Which is a big plus in the DCU Gotham City. Including Ivy's (who makes Harley's acquaintance in the debut One-shot "Harley Quinn") poisonous touch.
Quote from: silenig on Tue, 29 Dec 2009, 10:27
I also liked her re-imagining for the Azzarello/Bermejo Joker one-shot. It was the first time she was actually scary and lethal (she doesn't utter a single word), which made Batman taking her down all the more satisfying.
I absolutely love Lee Bermejo's art.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg137.imageshack.us%2Fimg137%2F5801%2Fhquinn.jpg&hash=03f6156c5f41202bb6f63087df9a68fc92ac1f76)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg137.imageshack.us%2Fimg137%2F5682%2Fjokerhc020.jpg&hash=89d59f89c5075294156d46565f7d2baff78f2c00)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg137.imageshack.us%2Fimg137%2F2153%2Fjokerhc073.jpg&hash=21540473877b3f17497c516ad862f697ffae6f4d)
Yea, the art is pretty good.
As for the writing, well...I already expressed my views in another thread.
I don't like the book much. I didn't really feel like I was reading about The Joker. I felt like I was reading about some typical mob boss. The Joker of this book lacks flair.
I know The Joker is an unpredictable guy who changes moods at the drop of a hat, but I don't like seeing him cry.
I buy Harley being obsessed with The Joker and getting worked up over him, but not the other way around. I just can't buy him doing that, regardless if the story is canon or not.
Hell, I don't buy The Joker crying any time around anyone, anywhere. The Joker does not talk about his true personal feelings. He hides details about his life with randomised narratives. Nor does he show them by being essentially emotionaly vulnerable and weak. Neither which The Joker is. He simply does not care for such things, and if he does, he will not show it. He is more likely to find this stuff funny. Bottom line, he has zero empathy.
The Joker treats Harley badly and she is fun for the time being, until he tires of her - yet the story stops and tells us that The Joker actually has genuine feelings for her. I just don't buy that.
Pre-Joker in The Killing Joke cries to his wife about his troubles. I buy that, as he is a different person. But after his acid bath, it's a totally different story.
What I really loved about this book was it's bleakness and the violence/gore, which were pretty high for a mainstream American comic with Batman characters.
I'm hardly a gorehound, I've written elsewhere that other things attracted me to Batman in the first place, but I think a "realistic" take on Batman is maybe more credible if it doesn't pull punches when it comes to violence and a bleak sense of hopelessness about what happens in Gotham, the polar opposite of the Animated show. "Everyone is a bastard, including Batman himself".
In his brief appearance, Batman isn't the good guy, just the less unlikeable guy (like Clint Eastwood in Leone's westerns) that tries to do some good. He doesn't even try to save "Jonny-Jonny", he only wants to take the Joker down, and when the Joker asks him why he leaves a glimpse of his handsome jaw behind the cowl, he replies "to mock you" (and this is what actually drives the Joker mad and he shoots Jonny). A "heroic" Batman would try to takedown a goon, not have him shot/killed, and he would never show an arrogant attitude because of his "superiority" or good looks.
Now, when it comes to Joker, I liked that they showed something of a "human" side to him - while keeping him totally unpredictable, insane and a bastard. This version is true to some characters seen in mafia/crime movies that have some likeable aspects or softs spots, but are essentially mad and evil. Remember that the Joker is not only insane, but also incredibly intelligent to earn the "respect" (and fear) of other crime figures as shown in the book, including the giant "Croc", a rich super-thief like the Riddler or a Penguin that has all the money he wants.
So, I can buy that he has a soft spot for Harley, with Harley being with the Joker not only because of her sick obsession or the excitement she experiences with their crimes, but also the luxurious lifestyle his earnings provide for her, and that with the Joker she feels safe. Or maybe because with her intelligence is the one that "saw" what hides behind the Joker. It makes her more "credible" and something more than a girl that dances around with a giant hammer, or a sexy comic relief.
I wouldn't like for something like this to be the "definitive" version, of course, but I think all the characters worked pretty well for what this book wanted to be.
Quote from: silenig on Wed, 30 Dec 2009, 16:42
I wouldn't like for something like this to be the "definitive" version, of course, but I think all the characters worked pretty well for what this book wanted to be.
Pretty much, and I felt the same exact way about the Alan Moore/Brian Bolland effort,
The Killing Joke.
Also, the scene where we see the Joker crying to Harley didn't bother me much in the book either. Because clearly, that scene would be seen as controversial by alot of readers, and I have no doubt that Azzarello knew this upon writing it for the graphic novel. It's just an example of the whole tragic clown aspect that gets brought up from time to time (thanks, Gwynplaine!). Do we get a reason as to
why he's clearly upset? Not really. It's not specified, but it does convey to the reader of Harley as being his "rock" so to speak. Which works, as Harley has always prided herself on being the only person to truly understand the Joker, and ultimately being able to see humanity in him in spite of his actions. Even though she has no lines in the book itself, it is shown in the book itself that Harley IS indeed a strong character. Just not in the traditional sense. I like that.
I don' think The Joker has genuine feelings for Harley at all. Sentimental attachment maybe, but that's it. He likes the idea of owning her. He knows she is loyal despite all he throws at her. I think he finds that hilarious. She is there because The Joker lets her be there. She's purely a fun past time until he tires of her.
The Joker continually mistreats and ignores her, and will use her to his advantage. It?s her own stupidity for keeping on coming back to him. But truth is, she?s in far too deep to walk away now. And she somehow genuinely loves him. She?s doing the chasing, not The Joker.
The Joker is a cool, cruel customer and a master manipulator. He created her very criminal existence. I just do not buy the characterizations and seen in this graphic novel.
I personally feel that the Joker does have feelings for Harley. But for someone like him to have feelings for another, would be really annoying and distracting to a character like him. In the comics, the Joker's mind is a complete and total mess of thoughts and ideas (which plays into that "Super Sanity theory), and ultimately having 'feelings' for another would make The Joker question his control over his own reality.
In the 'Harley Quinn' one-shot, Joker himself admits this in a one-on-one with Harley: "I've felt some changes coming over me since you entered my life. I've been reminded of what it's like to be part of a couple (possibly alluding to his wife in TKJ), to care for someone who cares for me - it's the first time in recent memory I've had those feelings... and I hate having those feelings! They're upsetting, confusing and worse, distracting me from getting my share of Gotham now that the getting's good!"
Was this a confession? Possibly. Was the Joker simply lying to Harley for sh*** and giggles moments before (or so he thought) her demise? Maybe. But it is interesting to note.
In my estimation, by setting out to kill Harley, Joker proves to himself he is in control and rids himself of a distraction. There is little doubt that the Joker could kill Harley and comfortably live with himself afterwards. Maybe even reflect on her with affection from time to time, but ultimately not be bothered by the fact of her death. He might even succeed one day. But I do think Joker tries to kill Harley because he cares for her, and it upsets him.
It is also interesting and noteworthy that, several pages later ... The Joker, still believing Harley is dead, initiates a conversation about women with his henchmen. He does not mention Harley of course, but I feel he does this because he is thinking about her - and missing her. In his way. Not enough to regret what he has done, naturally, but nonetheless, the emotion is certainly alluded to.
in Addition, the attempts the Joker has made on Harley's life are only occasional, and Joker?s response to their failure is not especially upsetting, nor does he reject her afterwards. Maybe, just maybe, the Joker even feels some degree of relief when they fail. It's possible that they even prove to him that, much like Batman?s continual triumph demonstrates he is the perfect foe, Harley?s survival demonstrates her as the perfect partner. Although I do believe the Joker would not regret it if he ever succeeded in ending her life, I also feel he may have some degree of pleasure that she continues to live on and return to him. It proves her worth, as his partner. Not everyone can escape a Joker-made death-trap, and many haven't.
Perhaps, in their way, they are even a challenge or a test of some sort, and Harley?s continual survival cements her further into his life.
It's natural to argue that his persistent abuse of her does not speak of love, but this IS the Joker we're speaking of. This is not someone who is a healthy, normal person. Of course he does not treat her with respect or consideration. He treats everyone exactly as it occurs to him to do so (like in TDK, "You know, I just ... do things!"); If Harley gets an extra helping because she is unusually closer to him than the majority of people and possibly because again, it reminds the Joker that he's in control. Joker also obviously enjoys inflicting pain and is very likely amused by it, no more so than when she scurries back to him a few moments later. For a character like the Joker, it would all serve as an endless stroking and petting of his ego. Additionally Joker would be irritated by the inconvenience of having feelings for someone would cause, and would therefore take this out on the person causing them. In this sense, Harley is going to be subject to abuse for simply existing.
Joker?s abuse of Harley works on two levels: one level is his very apparent sadistic streak and the obvious enjoyment he gets out of hurting and manipulating people. The other is that he is accustomed to acting simply as his compulsions dictate. In this way he will cheerful one second, furious and ripping someone to shreds the next. Harley is not exempt from this behaviour simply because they?re in a relationship. For the Joker does not truly understand how to relate and interact normally in human relationships.
With someone like the Joker, his insanity and desire to do harm on a grand scale, is not going to provide any sort of stable environment, reliable affection or indeed, any hint of normalcy. What he does give Harley is a place by his side, which is what she wants most, ultimately. Also, he allows her to come back , which is more than can be said for most who've worked with The Joker. As most, needless to say, end up dead.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 31 Dec 2009, 04:27
The Joker continually mistreats and ignores her, and will use her to his advantage. It?s her own stupidity for keeping on coming back to him. But truth is, she?s in far too deep to walk away now. And she somehow genuinely loves him. She?s doing the chasing, not The Joker.
I take issue with the term 'stupidity' since I don't believe that Harley is stupid per se; certainly not in an academic/ IQ sense. Like a lot of people caught up in abusive relationships she is clearly disturbed, possibly even the term 'foolish' could be applied, but not 'stupid'.
I think it's very stupid to return to an abuser, especially the likes of The Joker. I'm not saying she's dumb. She is smart. But when it comes to The Joker and her love for him, she is blind.
And The Joker, very good post. Some good points in there and I will consider them. Most of all though, I just have issue with The Joker crying. I just can't see him doing that.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 31 Dec 2009, 06:09
I think it's very stupid to return to an abuser, especially the likes of The Joker. I'm not saying she's dumb. She is smart. But when it comes to The Joker and her love for him, she is blind.
As they say, 'love is blind'. ;)
QuoteAnd The Joker, very good post. Some good points in there and I will consider them. Most of all though, I just have issue with The Joker crying. I just can't see him doing that.
That's understandable, Dark Knight.
The only other time I can recall (at the moment) the Joker shedding a tear, was actually in the Batman: TAS episode, "The Man who Killed Batman".
Though his sadness was very brief. ;D