Hey guys, over the years there have been very mixed reviews over Batman Returns wheather its Jett from BOF saying its a Batman movie in name only or some other Bat fans saying its an underated classic so whats your verdict on Batman Returns? IMO I think it is vastly underated and people saying Forever is better then it is just stupid to me. It has some great performances and its like a well crafted poem where everytime you read it or in this case you watch it you feel as though you have just found a new layer to it. This to me dertermines a good movie one where it stands really well on repeated viewings and makes you think long after the movie and not just forget about it once you have watched it, like Batman Forever. The movie also has my favourite Danny Elfman score to date its dark, moody and a tiny bit sinister. The acting is superb also, and this movie also to me presents the defintive Batman/Catwoman relationship on screen and if Nolan attempts to bring Catwoman in the next movie he is gonna have some work to compare to it to Pfeiffer/Keaton perfect onscreen chemistry. Anyways those are my thoughts on Batman Returns what are yours?
Batman Returns is one of the purest Batman adaptions ever. Be it comic, film or animation. It's a classic, whether people want to accept that or not.
I agree I think people just view it on what they see and don`t bother to think while watching it which is a problem people take it on face value, its not a summer blockbuster where your brain melts with action it causes you to think about the chracters, and situtions.
i think its no less batman than any of the others are. batman has all kinds of different styles and none are definitive or whatever. its all opinion but we know you boys and your opinions. this world wouldn't have ever had wars if you dorks could respect each other's opinion.
its my favorite cause it just kind of calls to me more than i think i realized when i put batman forever as my fave. i have to be in the right mood to watch returns but when i am, there's no greater film to me.
Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 15 Oct 2009, 13:35
i have to be in the right mood to watch returns but when i am, there's no greater film to me.
Great comment Catwoman.
Like so many armchair experts, a considerable portion of BOF'ers have weighed Batman Returns in the balance and found it wanting. A common refrain is "it's a good FILM but it's not a good BATMAN film," which I personally find patronizing as hell.
If your basis of comparison revolves around the Denny O'Neil (or later) period, your rubric is completely off-kilter. Sorry but there's really no nice way to phrase it.
Compared to the early Kane/Finger issues of Detective Comics, I find that both Burton films are very faithful to "the comics". The overall mood and tone of the films match up with the comics and are practically in lock step with them. There are other comics influences, to be sure, (TDKR and TKJ) but I find the clearest and straightest line to be the first year of Kane/Finger on Detective.
BR is a tapestry of wonderful music, casting, peformances, production design, effects, etc. I won't sit here and tell you guys it's a flawless film (the script has a few fits and starts, for example) but many of it's warts are no more egregious than you find in numerous other films (not least of which being Nolan's own Batman films).
As film, it's a pure joy. As a Batman adaptation, I find very few flaws with it.
It does depart from the comics in certain key ways. Selina is neither a flight attendant or a hooker. Frankly, I don't count that as a loss. The Penguin is actually a lot more faithful to the comics than he's given credit for. Burton took the character from the comics and gave him a few extra features so as to allow him to carry a movie's narrative demands. The yearning the Penguin has had for high society is present in BR, and, for my money, is all the more poignant considering his origins, his deformations and his choices.
Batman kills in BR. And ya know what? I don't have a problem. Frankly, I find it fits the psychological profile of a guy who takes every single other matter of law enforcement and criminal investigation into his own hands. Drawing the line at killing some of his adversaries may appease the Comics Code but I've never thought it suited the character. Would Batman kill a random purse-snatcher? No. Would he whack the Joker? You better believe it. I'm not interested in having a debate on this, I'm simply saying that a killing Batman works just fine for me.
As far as I'm concerned, the Burton films can take their place alongside BTAS, the Nolan films and other adaptations as a proud part of Batman's extra-comics exploits.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 15 Oct 2009, 20:55
As far as I'm concerned, the Burton films can take their place alongside BTAS, the Nolan films and other adaptations as a proud part of Batman's extra-comics exploits...
...except Batman and Robin. ;D
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Thu, 15 Oct 2009, 21:05Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 15 Oct 2009, 20:55
As far as I'm concerned, the Burton films can take their place alongside BTAS, the Nolan films and other adaptations as a proud part of Batman's extra-comics exploits...
...except Batman and Robin. ;D
Well, I didn't say
all other adaptations. And I'd throw both Schumacher films into the "not proud" category.
*Warning Rant in this Post*
::) Funny Jett says this about Batman Forever "In fact, it may the best at staying true to the comic book spirit of Batman than any of the Burton/Schumacher films"
I agree with you completly colour on your thoughts on Batman Returns, I am frankly tired of this patronising edge some of the people on BOF carry regarding Batman Returns espically Jett. I don`t mind if you dislike it but he seems to hate it with a firery passion that when ever is a time to mention how much he hates it and then to call in the worst of the genre next to Batman and Robin is plain stupid. In addition saying people don`t like Forever because of thier nosloegic love or attachment for B89 and BR what a load of tosh.To be honest fans like them because they are awesome movies and great Batman films. For someone who claims to unite the fans under one website he does a bad job of it. Even some of his contributers (Not PJ, PJ is awesome) seem like idiots like I was listening to one of the podcasts, the Watchmen roundtable and Jett says I like the movie ending better then the book ending and one of them don`t remember their names just says in a immature voice saying "You don`t know the comics man you don`t know" as though he was trying to be a Watchmen fanboy >:(
*Rant Over*
I also too put the Burton movies up there with TAS and the Nolan movies, why can`t people accept more then one person gets the chracter spot on and have a need to take sides.
Discussing fan reaction to Batman Returns is fine but I don't think it is fair to rant about individuals opinions when they are not here to respond themselves. BOF may not hold Batman Returns in high regard but that's common knownledge and doesn't need to be dragged out here. We love BR here ;D
And yes...PJ is awesome ;)
Batman Returns truly has the most emotional value of all the Batman films. I also felt as if Burton was trying very hard to show the mirror, or similarities between the characters in Returns. So many say that it isn't a true Batman movie, but I thought it was the most Batman-ish movie.
For some reason (I think it's mainly major fanboys and Burton-haters) Batman Returns just isn't for everybody. However I think it's fair to say, those who like it, like it a lot!
Quote from: Scarecrow756 on Thu, 15 Oct 2009, 23:26I agree with you completly colour on your thoughts on Batman Returns, I am frankly tired of this patronising edge some of the people on BOF carry regarding Batman Returns espically Jett. I don`t mind if you dislike it but he seems to hate it with a firery passion that when ever is a time to mention how much he hates it and then to call in the worst of the genre next to Batman and Robin is plain stupid. In addition saying people don`t like Forever because of thier nosloegic love or attachment for B89 and BR what a load of tosh.
I would agree with that. The main reason is because I went through a period where I didn't appreciate BR one bit and thought BF was a better movie.
Over time though, you kind of have to begin acknowledging that BR has actual
depth while Forever... well, it's got a lot of neon.
If it were strictly about nostalgia, cripes, the summer of 1995 is a helluva lot more vivid and memorable for me than just about any other summer.
On paper, BF should have every conceivable nostalgic advantage but I have no hesitation in saying that BR is head and shoulders, front to back, top to bottom, side to side and from start to finish a better film than BF ever could've been on Joel Schumacher's best day.
Hey, I'm all about playing favorites. I love Coke and despise Pepsi. I'll eat Big Macs and talk smack about Whoppers all day long. I prefer the Bronze Age Superman (1970's) comics to all other eras. When it comes to Batman films, I'm Burton's man through and through. I smoke Marlboro cigarettes and maintain that Winston cigarettes are for people with absolutely no self-respect. None.
All I ask is that someone justify why something's their favorite. That isn't a standard I don't meet myself so I don't see what the big deal is. But hey, live and let live, I guess.
Bear with me for just a second, as this will be semi-long...
When Jett and others on BOF say that Tim Burton had no intention of paying attention to the comics or being loyal to the *comics,* they are absolutely right.
But frankly, I don't care about the comics. I care about the characters. Comic books are just the medium that that characters were introduced in and appear in most frequently, and they have plenty of drek to their name - much more drek than seminal issues.
Every interview I've ever read where Tim Burton talks about Batman has him talking mostly about the characters, and being true to the spirit of the world, and what he loved and found worthwhile in the material. And that's all I want artists to do when they adapt a character like Batman. And if they do that, I may not like or agree with what they do with the character, but I will respect them for their care and effort, and in that sense, Burton and Nolan are on the same level, and it does get annoying when people say that they aren't.
As to whether Returns is underrated; it's my favourite Batman movie, and I think its strength of character and theme are often ignored for issues of plot that most critics would be happy to ignore if this were an independent art film, but I rather like the fact that it's so divisive. I think it pays, every once and a while, to have a major production like this featuring a character like this that creates a lot of controversy among fans and artists working with the character. It keeps things interesting, and the debates that exist around Returns are nothing if not interesting.
Quote from: zDBZ on Fri, 16 Oct 2009, 03:27
But frankly, I don't care about the comics. I care about the characters. Comic books are just the medium that that characters were introduced in and appear in most frequently, and they have plenty of drek to their name - much more drek than seminal issues.
put purrfectly.
For me, its an amazing film, me, I'm not into comics, never have been, and never will be, but the story, the characters, all of it is just perfect, very dark, but it comes off as great. And Jett, with his "it isn't a Batman film" well, tbh, he needs to get a life, lol, who gives a f*** whether it sticks 100% to the comics, if a good film is a good film, why bitch and complain about
Seriously, why is Jett held in such high regard and considered the authority on everything Batman?!
We should not be bothered by his Burton criticisms at all. He's just one guy with an opinion. No different to you or me.
If Tim Burton was exposed to Batman comics and it is widely accepted that B89 is influenced by those comics then why is there a notion that BR is not?
Is it suggested that Burton cannot remember reading those comics or researching B89 when it came time to make BR? ::)
It's a bit like saying that that Indiana Jones ROTLA is infuenced by 1930's serials but TOD is not.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Oct 2009, 11:06
Seriously, why is Jett held in such high regard and considered the authority on everything Batman?!
We should not be bothered by his Burton criticisms at all. He's just one guy with an opinion. No different to you or me.
Who's Jett? And what is BOF? I get the feeling he/she/it and this BOF are what Kevin Smith was talking about in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back!
Quote from: ral on Fri, 16 Oct 2009, 11:16
It's a bit like saying that that Indiana Jones ROTLA is infuenced by 1930's serials but TOD is not.
Exactly.
And if Burton is not responsible for the comic influences,
someone involved with those two films is. The comic influences
are there. To say they are not is just turning a blind eye.
Quote from: Tarzan1941 on Fri, 16 Oct 2009, 12:07
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Oct 2009, 11:06
Seriously, why is Jett held in such high regard and considered the authority on everything Batman?!
We should not be bothered by his Burton criticisms at all. He's just one guy with an opinion. No different to you or me.
Who's Jett? And what is BOF? I get the feeling he/she/it and this BOF are what Kevin Smith was talking about in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back!
never see nor heard of that but do you mean these fanboys who act like their testicles are so huge because they think they know more about a movie or comic franchise or whatev? soooooo amusing.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Oct 2009, 11:06We should not be bothered by his Burton criticisms at all. He's just one guy with an opinion. No different to you or me.
I think it mostly comes down to visibility. Some random guy on an AICN talkback might not be read or taken seriously by too many folks.
High-visibility admins like Jett? For better or for worse, what they say is read and perhaps noted as being representative of "the fans" by some important people. I don't want to tread too much further on this particular topic since (as Ral pointed out) Jett isn't here to speak up for himself but his visibility mixed with what I believe is a pronounced ignorance of the source material concern me greatly.
I agree Colours, that is the sad truth someone like that has a high standing in the Batman fan community but this thread is about Batman Returns so back on topic. What are some of your favourite scenes from the movie?
Favourite scenes?
Selina "transforming" in her apartment - infact the whole rebirth sequence from her oppression under Shreck, the city that bears down on her apartment, her boyfriend that dictates the terms of their relationship and her rejection of her complience by trashing all that.
The final scene with Bruce and Alfred and the cat in the alley - just perfectly done. Subtle, emotional and tender. "A hollow victory" as one particular person (GK) put it.
Awesome scenes there ral. Some of my favourites are the first meeting and talk between Batman and the Penguin. This is perfect as it establishes the stakes Bats and Penguin are fighting for, and the dialogue was great, short snappy and subtle it suited the mood perfectly. My other favourite scene is when Bruce and Selina find out each identities, the music was perfect and the emotion was all there plus great acting from Keaton and Pffifer. Its so tragic when Selina says "Does this mean we have to start fighting?"
Yeah the Batman Penguin meeting scene is great.
I always think as well that we sometimes take Batman as a hero for granted. But that scene sort of establishes that Batman doesn't have the people of Gotham in his pocket and Penguin could manipluate them very easily and there would be very little Batman could do about it. It tells us that Batman's crusade is not self serving and is for little or no thanks.
Quote from: ral on Fri, 16 Oct 2009, 11:16
If Tim Burton was exposed to Batman comics and it is widely accepted that B89 is influenced by those comics then why is there a notion that BR is not?
Is it suggested that Burton cannot remember reading those comics or researching B89 when it came time to make BR? ::)
It's a bit like saying that that Indiana Jones ROTLA is infuenced by 1930's serials but TOD is not.
Because B89, while it's not hard to recognise as a Tim Burton movie, was much more in the hands of the studio and producers than any of Tim's subsequent movies have been. One of the major reasons he did the sequel was because he didn't feel he'd gotten to say what he wanted to say on the first film.
That said, Burton did grow up with the 60s show, did read and love TKJ and DKR (using the latter as a sales tool for Keaton and Elfman), was given comics to read by Uslan (by Uslan's own confirmation), and did work with Sam Hamm very closely on developing the story and going back to the early comics. One of his major gripes on B89 was the unraveling of the script that they had been working on before shooting.
All *that* said, when it came to
Returns, Tim's chief concern was doing Batman his way and offering up his own personal take on the character, not going back to the Kane comics or reflecting the early 90s Batman as Michael Uslan has supposed. And his own personal take on Batman, by his admission, is about the characters. It's about duality, lack of integration, tragedy, the blurred line between the heroes and villains, of pulling yourself together by the faintest strings, a man who has good impulses but doesn't know what he's doing and just tries to make it through life, and of internalised characters going up againsts extroverts. Those aren't the sort of things the comics typically bring to the forefront. Batman is a superhero, and the heroic aspects tend to take the limelight whether he's light or dark, and Tim Burton once blatantly stated that he wasn't interested in telling a story about "a hero saving the city from blah blah blah." But I challenge anyone to prove that all of the aspects Burton focused on are not part of the Batman
character.
Favourate scene, probably the scene where Batman is fighting the clowns in the street, when the dog bombs the store.
Oh, and the ending between Batman and Penguin, the fight is great, well, atmosphere of it is
Best scene, hands down, is when the light shines on Bruce in his library. Greatest Batman scene ever, and he isn't even Batman yet in that scene.
Quote from: Scarecrow756 on Fri, 16 Oct 2009, 15:54
I agree Colours, that is the sad truth someone like that has a high standing in the Batman fan community but this thread is about Batman Returns so back on topic. What are some of your favourite scenes from the movie?
I dig the Keaton and Pfieffer scenes (except their introduction and the bit in Max's office). I love Bruce's INSTANT fascination for this nutcase.
Batman cruising past the Hall of Records and surveilling the Penguin. The dialogue, the music, the lighting, the sets, the snow, it's all perfect.
Penguin visiting the cemetary is good but I do feel like Burton somewhat missed the boat on that scene. I don't think it has the poetry to it that the music screams. Good for what it is but I feel it could've been so much more.
I like a lot of the establishing shots, oddly enough. The Gotham City matte painting (33 years later), the Wayne Manor/Batsignal shot (and the scene itself), the Cobblepots taking the stroller through the park, etc. Burton knows
exactly how to handle quick shots like those. There's so much in there that you want to just stare for hours. None of them quite have the same magic that the Gotham City matte painting shot from the beginning of B89 has but even so I lovelovelove Burton and his models. :)
any scene that illustrates the winter setting, i love.
I'm not going to list all of my favourite scenes, but upon reflection, the following is my absolute favourite Returns moment:
Iron maiden Batcave entry and sabotaging Oswald's speech - Now this sort of stuff is classic Batman. I love almost everything about it. The Vicki Vale conversation Bruce and Alfred have, the interior design of Wayne Manor, Bruce's clothing - love that jacket, and the way Bruce's behaviour changes once he enters the Batcave. Strictly business and the glasses come out. And the music in this scene is especially good.
Never noticed that but it seems that Bruce mostly only wears the glasses in the Batcave (the trip to Vicki's apartment aside). It's like putting on the glasses is somehow connected with him slipping into Batman's psyche.
i feel my smartest when i'm four-eyed so yea i can see how that would work.
its funny how after max kills selina she doesn't need the glasses anymore. maybe if someone knocks me out of a building and i hit my head on a snow bank it'll fix my eyes.
or i could just listen to christmas vacation and get kicked by a mule.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 17 Oct 2009, 05:09
Never noticed that but it seems that Bruce mostly only wears the glasses in the Batcave (the trip to Vicki's apartment aside). It's like putting on the glasses is somehow connected with him slipping into Batman's psyche.
I agree. Wearing the glasses symbolises that he's more serious and focused I think. It's probably one of the only ways to show that without the batsuit on.